Author Topic: Today's Game - 2021  (Read 43912 times)

Ron

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #105 on: March 09, 2021, 01:28:58 pm »
In any event, isn't service time expected to be a major issue in negotiations for the new CBA? If so, wouldn't that suggest it could be unwise to make important decisions based on the current CBA?

davep

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #106 on: March 09, 2021, 03:40:59 pm »
The CBA establishes the rules, and both sides should adhere to it.  The agreement was that the player can only be held in the minors for a certain period of time, and after a certain number of MLB years, becomes a free agent.  They even agreed on the specific number of games that comprises a "year", for free agent purpose.  Any team that does not maximize the value they get out of those specified six years is doing themselves and for that matter the fans, a disservice. 
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Dave23

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #107 on: March 09, 2021, 04:31:58 pm »
ORTEGA!
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JeffH

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #108 on: March 09, 2021, 04:34:18 pm »
Awesome!

Robb

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #109 on: March 09, 2021, 05:05:53 pm »
How cool!

Reb

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #110 on: March 10, 2021, 12:46:41 am »
The CBA establishes the rules, and both sides should adhere to it.  The agreement was that the player can only be held in the minors for a certain period of time, and after a certain number of MLB years, becomes a free agent.  They even agreed on the specific number of games that comprises a "year", for free agent purpose.  Any team that does not maximize the value they get out of those specified six years is doing themselves and for that matter the fans, a disservice.

What you’re really saying is that if a party can get away with undermining what they agreed to, they are doing a disservice when they fail to undermine.

You may notice that baseball management NEVER say what you just said they should do: Player X was sent to minors because the club wants to “maximize the value” of the six years. The one guy who actually said it recently (Mariners CEO) got fired for saying it.

Every contract in every transaction in every industry contains what lawyers call an implied covenant of fair dealing, meaning you can’t purposely undermine what you agreed to. If you agree to six years, you can’t undermine six years by making decisions so as to avoid six years. When a guy is sent out for non-baseball reasons so as to avoid reaching six years had the decision been based on baseball factors, it undermines the basic agreement that the parties reached.

The problem for the union is a failure of proof. No arbitrator is going to substitute his own judgment for a roster decision made by a baseball professional, so you actually need the club saying what you just said they should say—a smoking gun showing intent—which they try very hard to avoid saying.

Tuffy

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #111 on: March 10, 2021, 01:08:05 am »

JeffH

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #112 on: March 10, 2021, 09:47:32 am »
Alec Mills on the bump for Cubs today. Listed as available to work behind him: Chafin, Fenter, Gámez, Little, Nance, Rodríguez, Stock, Winkler, Workman. - Jordan Bastian

craig

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #113 on: March 10, 2021, 11:29:33 am »

Video of the Ortega slam:
https://twitter.com/Cubs/status/1369424452245667845

Ortega's big-league record is bad, but his minor-league career is .292-.361-.424-.785.  Not too bad.

A guy can change over some time, and perhaps add some strength, so maybe in some ways he's better now than some of his numbers reflect.  The flip is that coming up with a west team, his minor league numbers include stops in the Cal (A+), Texas (AA) and PC (AAA) leagues, all leagues that are rather hitter friendl.  Perhaps .292-.361 in those leagues is more like .250-.320 in the Cubs leagues, beats me. 

Guess I'm thinking that he looks like he might potentially be anti-awful if an injury necessitated him getting some action? 


davep

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #114 on: March 10, 2021, 04:08:21 pm »
What you’re really saying is that if a party can get away with undermining what they agreed to, they are doing a disservice when they fail to undermine.

You may notice that baseball management NEVER say what you just said they should do: Player X was sent to minors because the club wants to “maximize the value” of the six years. The one guy who actually said it recently (Mariners CEO) got fired for saying it.

Every contract in every transaction in every industry contains what lawyers call an implied covenant of fair dealing, meaning you can’t purposely undermine what you agreed to. If you agree to six years, you can’t undermine six years by making decisions so as to avoid six years. When a guy is sent out for non-baseball reasons so as to avoid reaching six years had the decision been based on baseball factors, it undermines the basic agreement that the parties reached.

The problem for the union is a failure of proof. No arbitrator is going to substitute his own judgment for a roster decision made by a baseball professional, so you actually need the club saying what you just said they should say—a smoking gun showing intent—which they try very hard to avoid saying.

Exactly.  There is no proof.  At no time did I say that they should announce their intentions or reasons.  But I certainly expect both sides to act in their own interests when working within the structure of the contract.  As I understand (I have not personally seen or read the CBA, but have read reports about it) the contract spells out exactly how many years it takes for a player to become a free agent, and spells out exactly how many days on the 40 man roster comprise a "year", in sufficient detail that it was known by both sides at what point they start counting years.

I have not seen any report that indicates that the contract specifies that a player MUST be called up to the majors when he is ready, nor any report that the CBA defines "readiness" in sufficient detail that an impartial arbiter can determine a player's state of "readiness".  If this is important to the players (and I do not deny that it is) then they should ensure that such specific language is contained in the next CBA. 

Without such specific language, it should be the burden of the aggrieved party to prove that a decision was made in "bad faith".  In the case of Bryant, it appears that the aggrieved party was not able to prove it.

In contract law, an ambiguity is a contract is usually resolved in the favor of the party that had the least power in the negotiation (such as the boiler plate provisions written by one party in which the other party must either accept or not enter into a contract (few bank loan provisions are seldom negotiable by the non-bank party).  But in this case, it would be hard to convince anyone that the players union did not have bargaining power equal to that of the owners.  In order to eliminate ambiguity of time requirements for free agency, the two sides agreed to the above mentioned length of time spelled out in the CBA to the exact number of roster days required, and the team complied with the requirements.  If there is a "spirit of the contract" ambiguity when it comes to a players state of "readiness", they should hammer that out in the next contract negotiation.

Reb

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #115 on: March 10, 2021, 04:27:31 pm »
Dave is, of course, correct that it's a good thing for the club (and the fans) to have the extra year of control over a player via service time manipulation, as in Cubs are better off having control over Bryant in 2021.  It's just that the service manipulation is really bad for the relationship between owners and players and unethical.

Dave, of course, doesn't actually contend that Bryant was sent to AAA for anything other than service time manipulation--to avoid having 2015 count as a full year of service time.  No serious person would argue that the reason he was sent to Iowa was for any other reason.

Funny thing is that just about everybody knows that the Bryant to AAA had nothing to do with player development while, at the same time, most everybody knew he would lose the service time manipulation grievance.  MLBPA pretty much knew it would lose, as it made no effort to remove the permanent arbitrator after the decision.  Indeed, for the reasons I noted in the earlier post, the arbitrator really had no choice given the absence of direct proof of intent.  Absent that, it would be silly and presumptuous for a non-baseball evaluator like the permanent arbitrator to overrule a Theo Epstein roster decision. 

So, we have the perverse incentive for baseball decision-makers to undermine the cba to keep up with some of their colleagues who do the same thing.  Theo did this for his entire career in Boston too as to opening day roster decisions, which the arbitrator found actually supported the Cubs decision with Bryant.  Very unfortunate when a stand-up guy like Theo is incentivized to misrepresent his decision-making process. "Oh, no, it was a baseball decision not based on service time."  Give me a break.  Maybe Theo will come clean when he writes his memoirs a few decades from now.

Presumably, this will be addressed in some fashion in the next cba.   

JeffH

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #116 on: March 10, 2021, 04:32:27 pm »
Manuel Rodriguez makes his spring debut.

Starts out with a 96 mph fastball.

JeffH

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #117 on: March 10, 2021, 04:36:25 pm »
Rodriguez as fast as 98, according to the Giants broadcasters.

Slider at 88.
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JeffH

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #118 on: March 10, 2021, 04:56:46 pm »
Stock up to 99.

JeffH

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Re: Today's Game - 2021
« Reply #119 on: March 10, 2021, 04:59:56 pm »
Now Stock at 101.