Author Topic: Around Baseball  (Read 421326 times)

Jes Beard

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #945 on: October 11, 2015, 07:24:28 am »
Utley has a history with this sort of BS - he's a serial offender.  Based on what I see in the video there's no reason he shouldn't be suspended for several games, minimum. Forget it being a bush league play - that slide wasn't legal under the letter of the rule.

How was it NOT legal?  Can you cite and quote the rule?  Or does "not legal" simply mean you personally did not like it?

If he violated the rules, I have no problem with suspending him.  If he did NOT violate the rules, but instead FOLLOWED the rules, then nothing should be done to him.

If you do not like the rules, change the rules, but do not penalize a player for doing what the rules allow.

craig

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #946 on: October 11, 2015, 07:48:39 am »
League changed the play-at-plate rules to prevent injuries, changed an ugly and dangerous baseball tradition, changed "the way the game is played", and changed how you"play hard and play to win."   

I think a high-profile incident like this, right after Coghlan broke Kang's leg, might be exactly the trigger to prompt a rule revision.  Hope it happens. 

Fortunately not every baserunner does that.  On one of the DP's against Pirates on Wednedsay, Castro was right behind the bag and in a very vulnerable position.  But Pirate basically slid to the base.  Had that been Coghlan or Utley going in, Castro too would very likely also be out with another broken leg.  Coghlan and Utley had to roll and redirect their weight well outside a direct line to the base.  Castro could have been demolished. 

I think it would be nice for base runners to change the rule.  I'd imagine their's a conflict; do I want to break somebody's leg and be at risk of being called a dirty player?  Or do I want to to risk being called "soft" and that I don't "play hard and play to win?"  Change the rule so that good players and good sportsmen who are trying hard and playing to win have no reason to want to break people's legs. 

Change the rules. 

Jes Beard

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #947 on: October 11, 2015, 08:59:38 am »
I have no problem at all with changing the rules.

I have a problem with punishing someone who followed the rules.

Ron

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #948 on: October 11, 2015, 09:22:28 am »
MLB Network reported that after the game Torre said they were going to implement a rule of having to go right to the bag, beginning in the Fall League.  Haven't noticed this being reported elsewhere yet, though.  Hope it's right.

Bennett

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #949 on: October 11, 2015, 10:00:33 am »
Quote
Rule 7.08(b) Comment: A runner who is adjudged to have hindered a fielder who is attempting to make a play on a batted ball is out whether it was intentional or not.

If, however, the runner has contact with a legally occupied base when he hinders the fielder, he shall not be called out unless, in the umpire’s judgment, such hindrance, whether it occurs on fair or foul territory, is intentional. If the umpire declares the hindrance intentional, the following penalty shall apply: With less than two out, the umpire shall declare both the runner and batter out. With two out, the umpire shall declare the batter out.


The highlighted area is what needs attention.  It has been interpreted to include "was within reach of the bag" as being in contact.  That needs to be clarified and emphasis should be added to the umpire judging the contact to be intentional.


The entire rule


http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/runner_7.jsp

Bennett

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #950 on: October 11, 2015, 10:32:36 am »
No surprise

Baseball America All-Rookie Team

C – Kyle Schwarber (Cubs)
1B – Justin Bour (Marlins)
2B – Addison Russell (Cubs)
3B – Kris Bryant (Cubs)

SS – Francisco Lindor (Indians)
CF – Joc Pederson (Dodgers)
OF – Randal Grichuk (Cardinals)
OF – Odubel Herrera (Phillies)
DH – Carlos Correa (Astros)
SP – Anthony DeSclafani (Reds)
SP – Lance McCullers Jr. (Astros)
SP – Carlos Rodon (White Sox)
SP – Eduardo Rodriguez (Red Sox)
SP – Noah Syndergaard (Mets)
RP – Roberto Osuna (Blue Jays)

Jorge Soler did not make either the first or second team.  But when he was on the field he produced at the plate.  In 101 games, Soler batter .262/.324/.399 with 18 doubles, a triple and 10 home runs for a .723 OPS.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 10:36:44 am by Bennett »

CurtOne

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #951 on: October 11, 2015, 10:35:46 am »
Wasn't Bour also a Cub farmhand?

DelMarFan

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #952 on: October 11, 2015, 10:44:15 am »
Rules change is great, but there really needs to be a culture change.  You can see it from Ripken's comments last night.  Culture says hard slide to take the guy out at second is playing good, hard baseball.  It's how they were all brought up.

Along with the rules change, there needs to be announcement that says "Yes, we understand that this is how it's always been, but we're not going to do it that way anymore because it's too dangerous, and it's unnecessary."

CurtOne

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #953 on: October 11, 2015, 10:52:33 am »
Devil's Advocate: Was it unnecessary?  Do the Dodgers win the game without that slide?  Perhaps not.  If Utley would have slud (channeling Dizzy Dean) to the bag, he would have been safe on replay, so yes. 

Jes Beard

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #954 on: October 11, 2015, 10:53:32 am »
Rules change is great, but there really needs to be a culture change.  You can see it from Ripken's comments last night.  Culture says hard slide to take the guy out at second is playing good, hard baseball.  It's how they were all brought up.

Along with the rules change, there needs to be announcement that says "Yes, we understand that this is how it's always been, but we're not going to do it that way anymore because it's too dangerous, and it's unnecessary."

A rule change can produce a behavioral change, which appears to be the true desire.  Just having folks say "we're not going to do it that way anymore because it's too dangerous, and it's unnecessary," to try to being a "culture change," would not only take years, but would also likely be ineffective.

While certainly the broken leg and the rules should be the focus here, am I the only one who has looked at the replay several times and never been able to see how on replay the decision Utley was out got reversed?  How could anyone have decided hat the SS failed to touch the bag when he had control of the ball, let alone conclude that the video so clearly established that failure to the point of reversing the call?

DelMarFan

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #955 on: October 11, 2015, 11:01:56 am »
I'm advocating both rules change and culture change.

Unncecessary not the right word.  I want all of baseball to look at it and realize "yes, there's an advantage to be had there, but to get it you have to engage in behavior that is just too dangerous, so we're not going to do it anymore."

rjzebra

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #956 on: October 11, 2015, 11:12:06 am »
As probably the oldest fan on this board, I will seldom criticize a runner for sliding to a base aggressively....it is part of baseball and I prefer it that way.  Make all the changes you want to protect these overpaid head cases, but IMO it's not my brand of baseball. :)   

Bennett

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #957 on: October 11, 2015, 11:29:52 am »
The takeout slide at second base is not unlike a pitcher throwing at a hitter.

Many "old school" veterans maintain that letting their pitcher hit an opposing player evens things out and that is the end of it.  Don't let the umpires get involved as they only compound the problem.  If only that were true.

An umpire can now eject a pitcher judged to have intentionally hit someone, even without warnings.  Do the same thing at second base.  If the umpire thinks the slide was for lack of a better word, unsportsmanlike, then the runner is gone.


Unfortunately, not all umpires think alike.  If the manager of a tossed baserunner appeals, let the replay crew in New York make the final decision.


Edit:



And to be fair, let the manager of the injured player ask for an appeal too.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 11:35:40 am by Bennett »

CUBluejays

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #958 on: October 11, 2015, 12:05:13 pm »
Devil's Advocate: Was it unnecessary?  Do the Dodgers win the game without that slide?  Perhaps not.  If Utley would have slud (channeling Dizzy Dean) to the bag, he would have been safe on replay, so yes. 

I don't think so. If he doesn't take out Tajada there is likely a throw to first and it becomes the neighborhood play and isn't reviewable. If Utley is out the chances of the Dodgers winning the game goes down into the 20% range.

I think there is a difference between Coghlan's and Utley's slides. Coghlan's was a hard slide, it actually looked like a slide. Utley's was at a 90 degree angle to the base and rolling. It was also late. I think a reasonable rule would be that you have to slide at the bag and it actually has to resemble a slide and not a tackle. I don't think you can eliminate all the possible ways that a SS/2B can get hurt turning a double play, but you can decrease the risks.

Jes Beard

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #959 on: October 11, 2015, 12:09:30 pm »
Wasn't Bour also a Cub farmhand?

25th round 2009 pick.  Was with the Cubs until a couple of years ago when the Marlins took him in the Rule 5 draft.  While he had a nice 2015, he offered a WAR of only 0.3, certainly better than a poke in the eye, but not much of a difference maker,