Author Topic: Politics, Religion, etc.  (Read 37040 times)

FDISK

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2013, 08:53:20 pm »
1. I break into Curt's house and steal his laptop in the name of a "principle",
2. to keep Curt from posting nonsense on the Internet,
3. in the vain hope that millions of people will hail me as a hero when in reality only fringe elements will consider it patriotic,
4. sell the laptop to the highest bidder,
5. then instead of standing on my principles I run away,
6. And to top it all off, in the name of keeping nonsense off the Internet, I hide out in Jesbeard's house.




« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 08:59:01 pm by FDISK »

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2013, 09:30:56 pm »
That's an excellent plan FDISK.... I keep my shotgun right inside the front door.... even though you would never need to use it.

davep

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2013, 11:20:27 pm »
You feel that someone that turns over the detailed budget and budget justifications of the CIA to the enemy to be a patriot?  That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard you say.

Dave23

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2013, 12:40:13 am »
That in itself speaks volumes...

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2013, 06:13:37 am »
davep, I feel that someone who lets us, the American citizen and taxpayers, know what our government is doing to us and doing to others in our name and hiding from us, and does so at considerable personal risk to himself, and who does so with the intent of allowing us, the American citizens, to influence future conduct of our own government, is not only a patriot, but also a hero.

The CIA never should get a single dime without that spending aired in public.

davep

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2013, 07:35:03 am »
Jes - do you believe that the Government should have military secrets?

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2013, 07:41:32 am »
Damn few.

Of course time and manner and scope and targets of a military attack should be kept secret.... you know, the kind of thing Obama himself is strongly hinting at when he now speaks about Syria.

Nothing Snowden has released would come remotely close to qualifying.

davep

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2013, 12:42:37 pm »
So you think that there should be SOME secrets.

Do you think that anyone with access to these secrets should be allowed to make any of them public if they don't agree that they should be secret?

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2013, 01:00:35 pm »
If we are at war, which we are not, and if the secrets involve the time and manner and scope and targets of a military attack, I have no problem with classifying that information or criminally punishing someone who deliberately provided that information to the enemy for the purpose of allowing the enemy to use it against us in a pre-emptive or defensive manner.

None of that describes what Snowden did, though some of it does describe what Obama and Kerry are doing.

In a democratic society very little information about government actions, plans or expenditures, should be kept secret.

If you do not want a democratic society, then it is easy to justify keeping secret anything those running the show want to keep secret.

FDISK

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2013, 01:44:12 pm »
The US wasn't at war when the Soviets stole the secrets for the H-bomb.

NATO wasn't at war when Philby exposed agents leading to scores of executions.

The US isn't at war with Iran, do you think our intelligence operatives and operations should be public knowledge?

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2013, 01:51:07 pm »
The US isn't at war with Iran, do you think our intelligence operatives and operations should be public knowledge?

Operations, yes.  Operatives, perhaps.

FDISK

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2013, 02:14:47 pm »
What is the value added in exposing secret operations?  What wrong are you righting?

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2013, 02:18:32 pm »
FDISK, I don't quite understand the nature of a question asking about "the value added."

In a democratic nation, the idea is that the people govern and make decisions.  That can not happen in a meaningful manner if they are not at least allowed access to the information needed to make intelligent decisions.

This is a democratic republic, not a monarchy with a divine right of kings.

The idea was not that the President was our boss, but that we are the President's boss.

FDISK

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2013, 02:29:35 pm »
Sounds great, you should make car commercials.

But you did touch on one important point, we aren't really a Democracy, are we?  We are federal republic.  Citizens don't make their own rules, they elect representatives to do it for them. Our duly elected representatives, our employees, made a decision a long time ago that it was in our best interest to have some secrets. Do you suggest that an individual is free to ignore the will of the many? To pick and choose which laws they will obey and to ignore the rest?

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2013, 02:45:18 pm »
FDISK, you seem to be trying to argue over what is or is not legal.  I have never said that what Snowden did was legal.

The existence of a law does not mean the law is MORAL or that it should be observed.  You are old enough to remember the Freedom Riders of the early 1960's.  They were breaking the law.  The law was wrong.  They did exactly as you suggest no one should do -- pick and choose the laws which they will obey or ignore.  They were patriots and they were heroes.

So is Snowden.

I have not said he did not break the law.  HE has not said he did not break the law.