Author Topic: Politics, Religion, etc.  (Read 40681 times)

wmljohn

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2310 on: February 17, 2018, 06:49:40 pm »
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How about a nationwide ban on any weapons that can shoot more than 10 rounds per minute

This has to be one of the most absurd suggestions I may have ever seen.  Clearly someone who has not thought this suggestion through.

Picture your daughter/wife/grandmother/any loved one who has a concealed carry in her purse is attacked by a would be rapist.  She gets the weapon and is able to pull off one round. 

Now sit at you computer for the next 6 minutes and do nothing but think about what is happening while she has to wait to fire another round at her attacker.

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2311 on: February 17, 2018, 06:54:00 pm »
This has to be one of the most absurd suggestions I may have ever seen.  Clearly someone who has not thought this suggestion through.

Picture your daughter/wife/grandmother/any loved one who has a concealed carry in her purse is attacked by a would be rapist.  She gets the weapon and is able to pull off one round. 

Now sit at you computer for the next 6 minutes and do nothing but think about what is happening while she has to wait to fire another round at her attacker.

Wait a minute, I also oppose davep's idea, for a number of reasons, but he did not say ONE round per minute, but TEN rounds per minute.

CurtOne

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2312 on: February 17, 2018, 08:10:17 pm »
This has to be one of the most absurd suggestions I may have ever seen.  Clearly someone who has not thought this suggestion through.

Picture your daughter/wife/grandmother/any loved one who has a concealed carry in her purse is attacked by a would be rapist.  She gets the weapon and is able to pull off one round. 

Now sit at you computer for the next 6 minutes and do nothing but think about what is happening while she has to wait to fire another round at her attacker.
Why does she have to wait?

davep

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2313 on: February 17, 2018, 08:22:10 pm »
This has to be one of the most absurd suggestions I may have ever seen.  Clearly someone who has not thought this suggestion through.

Picture your daughter/wife/grandmother/any loved one who has a concealed carry in her purse is attacked by a would be rapist.  She gets the weapon and is able to pull off one round. 

Now sit at you computer for the next 6 minutes and do nothing but think about what is happening while she has to wait to fire another round at her attacker.

A gun can be made to shoot 10 rounds in 10 seconds, but take 50 seconds to reload.  I did not mean to indicate that it had to have 6 seconds between each shot.  And if she doesn't hit her target in the first 10 shots, another 10 or so probably won't help her much.

The point is, there are very few instances, other than mass killing, that require the ability to shoot hundreds of bullets over any period of time.  I can't envision any scenario in which more than 10 bullets would be necessary.

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2314 on: February 17, 2018, 10:01:01 pm »
A gun can be made to shoot 10 rounds in 10 seconds, but take 50 seconds to reload.  I did not mean to indicate that it had to have 6 seconds between each shot.  And if she doesn't hit her target in the first 10 shots, another 10 or so probably won't help her much.

The point is, there are very few instances, other than mass killing, that require the ability to shoot hundreds of bullets over any period of time.  I can't envision any scenario in which more than 10 bullets would be necessary.

Tell that to the victims of the Sand Creek Massacre, or Wounded Knee, or the blacks lynched in American cities, or the Polish Jews in Krakow, or any other number of people who became the targets of genocide.

davep

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2315 on: February 18, 2018, 10:01:28 am »
Unfettered gun rights did not prevent any of those genocide (very poor word) actions, nor would they today.  No law or action can solve every possible problem, but this would go a long way to prevent the current one.

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2316 on: February 18, 2018, 11:02:05 am »
Unfettered gun rights did not prevent any of those genocide (very poor word) actions, nor would they today.  No law or action can solve every possible problem, but this would go a long way to prevent the current one.

There is a REASON "Unfettered gun rights did not prevent any of those genocide(s)."  It is the very same reason Star Trek phaser guns did not prevent any of those genocides.

The victims of those genocides had neither.  In EACH case of genocide (other than possibly Rawanda in the 1990's) of genocide in the last 150 years, the victims of genocide had either just lost their right to guns, or had culturally not yet meaningfully acquired guns, or were having their access to new or more guns severely restricted.

Assuming you are right that your "solution" completely eliminated school shootings, at a time when the murder rate overall has been falling, it would increase the odds of genocide.

How many school shootings with 17 fatalities are needed to total the deaths of the holocaust?  I will trust your math.

davep

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2317 on: February 18, 2018, 11:56:51 am »
The odds of genocide happening in the foreseeable future in the United States is extremely low, while the odds of more mass murders is extremely high.

It is true that the cultures in the prevented third world countries from developing technology for self defense, but in this age of asymmetric warfare had allowed even culturally and industrially undeveloped people to conduct self defense wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere.

This is not a question of regulations that diminish previous interpretations of the second amendment.  It has already been diminished, and rightly so.  We HAVE weapon control, and it will not go away.  What is left is to determine where to draw the line between the right to bear arms and the right to public safety.  It is not unusual for different freedoms to conflict with each other.  It is time to look at the current balance between our rights and freedoms.
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wmljohn

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2318 on: February 18, 2018, 02:33:20 pm »
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Wait a minute, I also oppose davep's idea, for a number of reasons, but he did not say ONE round per minute, but TEN rounds per minute.

Crap.  I am a dummy.  For some reason I read the post as 6 rounds per hour when it obviously said per minute.

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2319 on: February 18, 2018, 04:11:28 pm »
The odds of genocide happening in the foreseeable future in the United States is extremely low, while the odds of more mass murders is extremely high.

It is true that the cultures in the prevented third world countries from developing technology for self defense, but in this age of asymmetric warfare had allowed even culturally and industrially undeveloped people to conduct self defense wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere.

This is not a question of regulations that diminish previous interpretations of the second amendment.  It has already been diminished, and rightly so.  We HAVE weapon control, and it will not go away.  What is left is to determine where to draw the line between the right to bear arms and the right to public safety.  It is not unusual for different freedoms to conflict with each other.  It is time to look at the current balance between our rights and freedoms.

What is the "foreseeable future"?  Did the Germans foresee the Holocaust when the Jews were disarmed?  This nation has racism, bigotry, hatred, and violence in its history and at its core.

Not being able to see the possibility of genocide in the future is only a comment on the limit of your vision.

What what freedoms are in conflict on this issue?  You wrote, "It is not unusual for different freedoms to conflict with each other."  I am sure you believe that to be true, but it is a result of a fundamental understanding of our freedoms under the Constitution.  Those rights exist almost entirely as proscriptions on the powers otherwise granted to government.  In other words, it is VERY, VERY unusual for "different freedoms to conflict with each other," but, to show me wrong, since you believe "it is not unusual," is there any chance you could point to three such conflicts?

davep

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2320 on: February 18, 2018, 07:47:36 pm »
As I already said, the right to bear arms can conflict with the right to public safety.

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2321 on: February 19, 2018, 12:52:04 am »
As I already said, the right to bear arms can conflict with the right to public safety.

The right to bear arms is found in the Second Amendment, and it is merely the right not to have government infringe on that right.

Could you point to the language in the Constitution that addresses "the right to public safety"?  Several cases over the years have been brought against local police departments or sheriff's offices for failing to keep the plaintiffs safe, and each time the Supreme Court has made clear that no such obligation exists for government.  In other words, there is no such right, or at least the Supreme Court has concluded that there is none, but  perhaps you could point to the language showing how and why they are wrong.

Eastcoastfan

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2322 on: February 19, 2018, 02:29:48 pm »
This would be a real extension of existing doctrine, Jes. But I wonder whether the very narrow "special relationship" exception to the usual rule that you note--that the Constitution usually does not oblige government to provide us with affirmative protection--could be extended to the school context, given that we mandate education for minors? Thus, the argument would be, in the same way that the government has an affirmative constitutional obligation to provide a safe environment and adequate medical care to the incarcerated (who are in a special relationship with government because they cannot take care of themselves), so too should it have an affirmative constitutional obligation to provide a safe environment to the children it requires (usually) to attend school.

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2323 on: February 19, 2018, 03:24:57 pm »
This would be a real extension of existing doctrine, Jes. But I wonder whether the very narrow "special relationship" exception to the usual rule that you note--that the Constitution usually does not oblige government to provide us with affirmative protection--could be extended to the school context, given that we mandate education for minors? Thus, the argument would be, in the same way that the government has an affirmative constitutional obligation to provide a safe environment and adequate medical care to the incarcerated (who are in a special relationship with government because they cannot take care of themselves), so too should it have an affirmative constitutional obligation to provide a safe environment to the children it requires (usually) to attend school.

The problem with indefinite pronouns is that they are, well, indefinite.

WHAT would be an extension of existing doctrine?  Oh, and there IS no Constitutional mandate that states educate anyone, only that education which IS provided is provided equally.

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #2324 on: February 19, 2018, 11:18:42 pm »