Reb - For whatever reason, we are talking past each other here and I am not interested in a prolonged exchange on the subject. But I do feel the need to answer your response to my post.
I believe you are being unfair in how you are interpreting and characterizing tico’s earlier comments. He expressed fear that there were those in the military who could be sympathetic to Trumps attempts to overturn the results of the election. It's worth noting that there have been very high ranking military officials in the relatively recent past who were capable of such actions, specifically Curtis Lemay and Edwin Walker. More recently, the name Michael Flynn comes to mind. Tico never suggested they would carry the day. While I seriously doubt there are any such guys in the military leadership today, it's not impossible and I don't find a fear of that as being looney.
Equating tico’s characterization to “the kind of thing that Trump himself does all the time” may be a fine debating tactic, but it’s unfair and inaccurate. When you do something like that, how on earth do you expect the recipient to react? If you are trying to convince someone of your point of view, that is not the way to do it.
I get that your focus is on our institutions: the press, the judiciary the opposition party and the bureaucracy that manages the election process. While I have plenty of criticism of how the press has allowed Trump to use them in the last 4+ years, and I am concerned about the number and type of unqualified and deeply ideological judges appointed by Trump, it is certainly true that when the s h i t really hit the fan after the election, those institutions stepped up. And there is ample evidence that the people counting and certifying the votes did their jobs admirably - in spite of the pressures some were under.
I appreciate the fact that nearly all of the people involved in counting and certifying the votes were honorable in their actions. But given the lunacy that has taken place in some state and local Republican Parties, it wasn’t unreasonable to be uncertain that would be the case. And, as you know, there were exceptions among those charged with certification, in both Michigan and Pennsylvania, and maybe Arizona as well. Even so, I don’t recall tico specifically suggesting that those folks would participate in a coup.
I do not believe it was unreasonable to be unsure the process would work as smoothly as it has going into election day, given the environment in which we find ourselves.
Trump has increasingly trampled long cherished norms without any pushback from the Republican Party, clearly emboldened by Republican failure to hold him accountable in the impeachment process. McConnell refused to allow consideration of a Supreme Court nominee simply because he could, with no pushback from the Republican Party. Outrageously unqualified, and in some cases looney nominees to the judiciary have been approved as judges, in most cases without any Republican pushback. The same with cabinet appointments. Only one Republican Senator voted to convict Trump of a single count in the impeachment process. Under McConnell, the Senate has utterly failed to provide the guardrails upon which our democracy depends. That institutional framework has not held. It is understandable that some would worry that Trump would be able to continue to push through normal institutional restraints. You suggest that once Biden is president, “there will be the usual and expected partisan fights.” I wish. That is not what we have seen in either the Senate or the House in recent years, including before Trump. What we have seen is obstructionism, denial of scientific evidence, and deranged conspiracy theories unparalleled in my lifetime. I expect more of the same, which will further erode the political environment in which our democracy exists. I hope I’m wrong.
Tico complained that you presumed to know his beliefs and thoughts, and I can relate to that. You said: “And, you don't think I have pointed out the lunacy surrounding the Trump base? Seriously? I have said to Deeg and Tico: don't be like those crazies and stop playing playing into their lunatic hands.” Can you please point out where I said anything of that sort?
You also said: “I wonder and kind of fear that you may be painting too many of these folks with a broad brush as threats to democracy because they support Trump. Those who feel that way about these folks are part of the problem that you complain about, seems to me.”
You are way to quick to reach that sort of conclusion or even suspicion about my views toward Trump supporters. And you did this in spite of the fact that you know me well enough that you should know better. As it happens, I have a complex view of the 70+ million who voted for him. A very substantial portion of his support does come from those who have adopted him as their cult leader. There is ample evidence from multiple polls in recent years that at least 30%, and probably a higher percentage of Americans harbor deeply authoritarian, racist and xenophobic views. Trump did not create that reality, but he has brought it out into the open, emboldened it and, to some degree, normalized it. The result is a monster has been created that today's Republican leadership is afraid to offend.
Beyond that core group, of course, Trump manipulated a lot of well meaning, decent people. There are millions of people who simply feel they are being left behind in our changing economy and they are desperately in search of someone to be their champion. That they see Trump as that person is bizarre, but it is what it is. Some have done better in an economic recovery begun in the Obama years and attribute that success to Trump. That’s ignorance but it isn’t vile. Many Trump supporters see the society in which were brought up disappearing before their eyes – not only through economic uncertainty, but with minorities, immigrants, gays and women becoming increasingly visible in mainstream media. And they are having trouble adjusting to this new reality. Not all of those people are inherently bigoted. I do not blame them. I blame the Republican leadership who consciously exploit and manipulate their insecurity and fear.
Yeah, the Dems need to do a better job of understanding and reaching out to that group. Sherrod Brown is an example of someone who seems good at doing that. Ironically, Al Franken did that well after his first election in Minnesota. That is a different subject though.
But in Nazi Germany, there were plenty of people who were manipulated in supporting actions they would not have normally supported. That didn't make the result any more benign. I don’t think Democracies collapse in a single moment. They are eroded and I believe ours is being seriously eroded. This is the context in which reasonable people can develop and express fears of elections being stolen. In such an environment, I believe you should be way more understanding of the type of fears expressed by tico.
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