Author Topic: Politics, Religion, etc.  (Read 99451 times)

ticohans

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1005 on: November 13, 2016, 08:37:55 pm »
I would be interested in hearing how they do it for refugees in Syria.  If they indeed do not allow anyone in to the country until their past has been vetted, I have no problem with it.

Dave, I personally am not intimately familiar with the process, but you don't have to search very hard to find multiple articles on the subject. Here's one that overviews the basics:

http://time.com/4116619/syrian-refugees-screening-process/

The gist of it is that refugees are first vetted by UNHCR, a process that often takes more than a year. After passing UNHCR's extensive background checks, interviews, biometric scans against known databases, etc., they then have to go through screening on the US side of things, because we're not going to take UNHCR's word. And if the refugees are Syrian, the US uses even tighter screening measures.

The notion that the screening process is a dangerous sieve by which terrorists are coming into the country is a vile lie that scheming pols have used to grossly manipulate a willfully ignorant voting population.   

ticohans

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1006 on: November 13, 2016, 08:48:50 pm »
This article goes into much more detail:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/cosmostheinlost/2015/11/19/exclusive-longtime-immigration-lawyer-pastor-explains-the-refugee-process/

Trump's lies about immigration are some of the most hurtful he has spoken, as they damage not a political opponent, but the ability of another human being to flee absolute hell and come to the country that holds up the Statue of Liberty as one of its icons.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
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Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1007 on: November 13, 2016, 08:54:13 pm »
For however much Clinton is "disliked by the masses" let's not forget that Trump is disliked even more. His favorability ratings were lower, and Clinton is going to end up with at least a million more votes than him. Let's not let the electoral college obscure that fact.

You can try to twist and explain and justify, though efforts to do any of them involve more projection than they involve actual knowledge.  There is little more we actually know beyond one simple thing, and let's not let the demonstrations obscure that fact -- Trump won.

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1008 on: November 13, 2016, 09:09:50 pm »
Actually, my friend has worked extensively with the Syrian refugee population. When our elected officials suggest it is no system to vet these people, they are either ignorant or selling you an easy line for their own political gain.

The word that there was no effective vetting process in place did not come from "our elected officials," but from multiple Obama administration appointees.

 Jeh Johnson, the head of Homeland Security, has said that “we’re not going to know a whole lot” about Syrian refugees. FBI Director James Comey told Congress that the FBI cannot adequately check the backgrounds of Syrian refugees because the necessary records do not exist. Former FBI director James Kallstrom said the refugee policy was “crazy.”....  Assistant director of the FBI’s Counterterrorism Division, Michael Steinbach, said of the vetting process that “it’s not even close to being under control.” Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, CIA Director John Brennan and NCTC Director Nicholas Rasmussen have made similar statements.

ticohans

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1009 on: November 13, 2016, 09:26:27 pm »
Also, Dave, in case you're wondering, the "more likely to be killed by your clothes" isn't a pithy comment. It's actually true. Here's a superficial story reporting on extensive research by the Cato Institue (study linked in web article) on the likelihood of death-by-immigrant-terrorist.

http://www.vox.com/2016/9/13/12901950/terrorism-immigrants-clothesHere's

davep

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1010 on: November 13, 2016, 10:35:42 pm »
Tico - thanks for the article.  I appreciate the help.

First, let me start by saying that I do not believe that refugee groups make up a substantial threat to the general population of the United States beyond that which already exists, for no other reason than I believe that if a terrorist wants to come here, there are so many ways that he could come here that there would be no reason to go through the process.

However, that said, the article you cited does very little to quell the fears of anyone that is concerned about them.

The fact that a refugee can not be guaranteed entry to the United States would seem rather unimportant, since the entire west is a target for terrorists.  If they wanted to go through the refugee process, they would probably be equally satisfied with going to Germany or France as the United States.k

The article entirely glosses over the vetting process itself.  It would seem to me that if a terrorist were to go through the process, it would be quite easy to go through an interview process.  In a previous life I spent a lot of time in Syria and Turkey purchasing spices grown in the area.  Even during time of peace, I can not conceive of a way to independently verify if a person came from a particular town,  went to a particular school, what kind of associations he had with various groups, whether he had spent time in an army, militia, etc.  What mosque he might have attended and what was taught in those mosques, who were his associates, etc, which I would expect to be the core of any "vetting"

As I said, I see very little danger in refugees, even those from Syria.  But I don't think it is fair to look down on those who legitimately believe that actual vetting can not be conducted in a third world country that has been in revolution for a decade.  If you believe that terrorists would want to come through the refugee system, it is not unrealistic to believe that the current vetting system would not stop them.

One large problem with our political (and social) system is that each side tends to dismiss the views of others, rather than understand and refute them.

ticohans

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1011 on: November 13, 2016, 11:00:00 pm »
The article from Patheos goes into some detail about the process from an immigration attorney. As I personally know people involved in the process, all I can say is their opinion backed by their expertise means significantly more than at-a-distance speculation. The people on the ground actually conducting the vetting say it works, and the data completely backs them up.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 11:02:51 pm by ticohans »

DelMarFan

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1012 on: November 13, 2016, 11:37:32 pm »
Quote
Trump on 60 minutes seemed to have lost some of the swagger and seemed more reasonable. I hope that is the Trump that shows up to the White House.

I couldn't bring myself to watch, but I certainly hope that this is true.
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Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1013 on: November 13, 2016, 11:43:58 pm »
Also, Dave, in case you're wondering, the "more likely to be killed by your clothes" isn't a pithy comment. It's actually true. Here's a superficial story reporting on extensive research by the Cato Institue (study linked in web article) on the likelihood of death-by-immigrant-terrorist.

http://www.vox.com/2016/9/13/12901950/terrorism-immigrants-clothesHere's

Sorry, tico, and not really wanting to let facts, logic or math get in the way of what you think is at least a pithy comment, but you are wrong when you write, "You are literally more likely to be killed by the clothes you are wearing than an immigrant terrorist."

The error is more than just a grammatical one in the wrong tense of the verb "are."  The reason for the choice of the present tense "are" is to suggest that the data of what has happened up to this point is meaningfully predictive of what will happen in the future if we continue to allow immigrants to enter under the same policies we have.  That is an exceedingly foolish assumption.  In other words the error would not appear to be innocent, but instead to be deliberately misleading.

Neither you, I, davep, the CATO Institute, nor the liberal hack who writes for vox.com who made the claim you repeat know what the odds of death by terrorist in the future WILL BE.  We can only look at what the odds in the past HAVE BEEN.  The analyst with CATO knew this, which is why he wrote that "From 1975 through 2015, the chance of an American being murdered by a foreign-born terrorist was 1 in 3,609,709 a year," using the correct verb tense "was."  The hack with vox.com seemed to miss that.

While neither you, I, davep, the CATO Insititute, nor the liberal hack writer with vox.com know what the odds WILL BE in the future, particularly if ISIL does as it has promised, or as we have seen it do in European nations, it does stand to reason that the odds will be higher if we as a nation have lax to no vetting of immigrants than if we have heightened scrutiny.

Jes Beard

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1014 on: November 13, 2016, 11:58:34 pm »
Don't let the actual facts and a vulnerable view of humanity get in the way of bigotry, Dusty.

You don't really think he was waiting for your permission, do you?

I see good and bad in both of them.

There's a reason I didn't vote.

Whatever the reason, we are thankful for it.

CUBluejays

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1015 on: November 14, 2016, 10:01:40 am »
I couldn't bring myself to watch, but I certainly hope that this is true.

Some of the highlights
- Going to repeal Obamacare and keep the parts that people like.  I'll be interested to see how this is going to work, because it likely will send prices soaring.
- Still going to build a wall, but parts might be a fence.  Frank Luntz tweeted that building a wall on the Mexican boarder would take 3x more concrete than the Hoover Dam
- Only going to deport illegals with criminal records at the start.  Trump estimated the number at 2-3 million (I'm not sure where he came up with that number).  The rest would be TBD after the boarder was secure. 
- Bannon as an adviser worries me, but at least he wasn't the Chief of Staff. I took away that a lot of what he said in the campaign will be on the table.  I could be wrong.  I didn't vote for the guy, but I hope for the countries sake he doesn't govern like the Alt-Right wants him too.

JR

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1016 on: November 14, 2016, 10:22:48 am »
Quote
Bannon as an adviser worries me, but at least he wasn't the Chief of Staff. I took away that a lot of what he said in the campaign will be on the table.  I could be wrong.  I didn't vote for the guy, but I hope for the countries sake he doesn't govern like the Alt-Right wants him too.

Yeah that scares the crap out of me too.  Bannon is really bad news.  Whatever argument there might be that Hillary has as bad or worse character than Trump, she certainly does not have worse character than Bannon, and it looks like he has a powerful position in Trump's administration. 

Like you said, at least Bannon isn't Chief of Staff, but it certainly sounds like he has a John Ehrlichman type role in Trump's administration, and that's bad.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 10:25:41 am by JR »
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CurtOne

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1017 on: November 14, 2016, 10:31:52 am »
Bannon is the only move that concerns me so far.  Knowing he would back off a lot on the wall, Obamacare, deportation, and everything else was a given.

davep

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1018 on: November 14, 2016, 10:56:46 am »
Interesting.  Before he was appointed yesterday (or the day before) I had never heard of him (I assume I have heard his name on some newscast or other, but nothing that caused it to stick).  The only thing I have heard about him since then is that he works for Breitbart, which doesn't help a lot since I have never read Breitbart and no nothing about it other than that Otto doesn't like them.

Can someone point to impartial information about him?

CUBluejays

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1019 on: November 14, 2016, 11:10:50 am »
Bannon is a smart guy.  Ivy League school and a graduate degree in economics.  He worked with Goldman Sacs.  From there he made a documentary with Michelle Buchanan.  He used a few more conservatives to get into Palin's inner circle.  After Palin he became friends with Breitbart and took over Breitbart media after his death.  Breitbart was then turned into two things 1) Alt-right jumping off point and 2) Trump media.  There is an open question of how much he is using the alt-right vs him really believing in it.  It does seem that wants to turn the Republican party into a more European conservative movement, which would have a much different feel than the current Republican party.