Author Topic: Politics, Religion, etc.  (Read 99359 times)

ticohans

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1245 on: December 14, 2016, 08:21:34 am »
Claiming a consensus exists, does not make it so...

In other news, Jes challenges the notion that there is consensus on the fact that the world is indeed round.

Playtwo

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1246 on: December 14, 2016, 08:32:04 am »
Well, the earth isn't round.  It's an oblate ellipsoid.

CurtOne

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1247 on: December 14, 2016, 09:28:25 am »
I believe the scientific evidence that our planet has gone through numerous Ice Ages and warming.  Why are we panicking as if this were something new?  I believe that man has some impact on the weather, but man is full of himself if he thinks he's the big deal; man is a pimple on the butt of an elephant.   I believe that while warmers and deniers are arguing blame, little is being done to prepare civilization for coming changes.
10 of these forum pages ago, that is what I posted.  In the meanwhile, we had 10 pages of proof or denial posts, nature vs. man posts, professional citation posts, but only one, ONE, offering any kind of solution.  Which was my point.

FDISK

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1248 on: December 14, 2016, 10:22:57 am »
No, it's really not. I'm not trying to suggest that the consensus on global warming is wrong, merely challenging the way you are using the word here.

There is scientific *consensus* on the idea that athropogenic global warming is a *fact*.


How am I using the word differently? When 90% of the "judges" agree is that not a consensus?  I think it is.  Therefore, consensus is fact. (Whether the judges ultimately turn out to be correct is another matter....)

FDISK

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1249 on: December 14, 2016, 10:25:14 am »
Not powerless.  But certainly not all powerful.  Civil Service laws still exist and are in effect.

Dave, I worked for a prime contractor to a National Lab for my entire career.  NOT ONCE did I hear the phrase "Civil Service laws".

FDISK

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1250 on: December 14, 2016, 10:38:40 am »
10 of these forum pages ago, that is what I posted.  In the meanwhile, we had 10 pages of proof or denial posts, nature vs. man posts, professional citation posts, but only one, ONE, offering any kind of solution.  Which was my point.

I think people need to be convinced that there is a possible problem before anything can be done. As for the Ice Ages, yes the last Ice Age was a mere blink of an eye ago.  If you believe in radical ideas (like the 4.5 billion year age of the Earth) then we might possibly still BE IN the Ice Ages. Yes warming and cooling has been a natural...and will continue to be a natural occurrence.  But if you read some of those boring professional citations you will see that real scientific work suggests that the accelerated and unprecedented carbon buildup in the atmosphere appears to be the primary source of the problem.   

If you want to do something about it then it seems that a reasonable approach would be to limit the possible harm until we understand the problem better.  If Man made Global Warming does indeed turn out to be incorrect then we have done no harm. (Except to the oil industry, that is.)

CurtOne

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1251 on: December 14, 2016, 12:03:09 pm »
We are still arguing whether or not it's true, rather than some sensible solutions.  I think it was CBJ who suggested we take our left-wing brains out of the sand and follow France's lead of returning to nuclear power and going to natural gas to power trucks.  Those are solutions that are good for all of us regardless of global warming beliefs.  I think there are other rational solutions out there that go beyond what is causing climate change.

FDISK

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1252 on: December 14, 2016, 12:35:08 pm »
Curt, the argument against doing anything is that the problem doesn't exist. Trump (and a few people around here) argue that any changes are not needed because Global Warming is a hoax. Trump has appointed an oil state AG to head the EPA.  Trump has already indicated that he will pull out of international agreements on the environment. IF...and this is still an IF...IF man-made global warming exists then it is time for reasonable policy. My impression is that the motivation behind non-reasonable policy is nothing more than greed.

As for nuclear energy. If my father were alive he would say something like, "of course!"  I can hear his words now, "Burning hydrocarbons is a very wasteful use of a valuable resource that is needed, and will be needed, elsewhere."  Then he would break into a diatribe on ignorance and the state of my current report card.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 12:43:09 pm by FDISK »
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ticohans

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1253 on: December 14, 2016, 01:27:03 pm »

consensus is fact.


This is very obviously false, and I'm somewhat surprised that you're trying to make the equivalence.

Fact: the quality of being actual; something that has actual existence; an actual occurrence

Consensus: general agreement; group solidarity in sentiment and belief

These are clearly not the same things.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 01:29:52 pm by ticohans »

FDISK

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1254 on: December 14, 2016, 01:29:44 pm »
Fact: the quality of being actual; something that has actual existence; an actual occurrence

Yes, I consider the 90% consensus on man-made global warming to be actual, it has actual existence, and is an actual occurrence.

That there is a consensus is a fact. Whether the consensus conclusions represent a fact is another question. I suspect our only problem here is in semantics.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 01:36:45 pm by FDISK »

ticohans

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1255 on: December 14, 2016, 01:31:24 pm »
Yes the notion that there is a consensus on global warming as real is a fact. I agree completely and must have previously misunderstood.

I thought you were using the fact that consensus exists to then also argue that global warming is a fact.

Again, I believe global warming is a thing, not trying to argue otherwise.

Bennett

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1256 on: December 14, 2016, 01:39:24 pm »
The board has not reached a consensus on the meaning of the word "consensus".

FDISK

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1257 on: December 14, 2016, 01:41:00 pm »
I suspect this board will never reach a consensus on that or anything else, for that matter.

Bennett

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1258 on: December 14, 2016, 01:45:21 pm »
I suspect this board will never reach a consensus on that or anything else, for that matter.
There could be a consensus on the above statement.

Robb

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Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
« Reply #1259 on: December 14, 2016, 02:25:09 pm »
I suspect this board will never reach a consensus on that or anything else, for that matter.
The Cubs are world series champions.  There, dispute that!
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