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Author Topic: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)  (Read 51063 times)

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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1035 on: September 20, 2015, 11:09:23 am »
I'm not sure who's missing the point anymore.  Too many straw men and misquotes and misunderstandings.  I don't recall anyone saying we should trade one of our top prospects for a Haren type pitcher.  And when I say that probably someone gets traded this winter, I'm just going on what Theo says about using assets to obtain pitching rather than hitting.  The goal, I thought, was not just to be good enough to make the playoffs but to be dominant.  Clearly the signs are there that we are approaching that level, but I doubt the front office is going to stand pat.  Most teams that stand pat start to struggle.
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1036 on: September 20, 2015, 11:23:31 am »
Paul Sullivan has an article on Theo's organization-building that has a glaring mistake that typifies the smart-ass sensationalist tendencies of Sullivan.

Snubbing Ryno: After dismissing manager Mike Quade with a year left on his two-year deal, Epstein said in a news release the Cubs would seek a replacement with major-league coaching or managing experience.

That meant snubbing popular Cubs Hall of Famer Ryne Sandberg, then the Triple-A Iowa manager. It was a signal the Cubs were not going to make moves to appease longtime fans.

Sandberg left the organization and went on to manage the Phillies before resigning in July after lasting less than two years.

In reality, Sandberg joined the Phillies as their AAA manager for the 2011 season after Quade was picked by Hendry, before Theo joined the Cubs.  You'd think that Sullivan (who was beat writer covering the Cubs then, I believe) would have known that, or at least would have looked it up before making the claim.  Well, you'd think that if you weren't very familiar with his history.
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1037 on: September 20, 2015, 11:28:04 am »
My thought on Bryant in CF is that all of Baez, Russell, and yes, Castro, are probably better IF defenders than Bryant, all things considered. Baez simply has better instincts and athleticism, Russell is a great choice at SS, and Bryant just isn't a 2B, while Castro can be. Meanwhile, Bryant has good speed and a good arm, meaning that, in theory, he could play a good CF. From a defensive value perspective, good CF defense is worth at least as much, if not more than, good 3B defense. Moving Bryant to CF doesn't diminish his "value-potential." In fact, it may actually enhance it.
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1038 on: September 20, 2015, 11:29:44 am »
Quote from: ticohans on September 20, 2015, 11:28:04 am
My thought on Bryant in CF is that all of Baez, Russell, and yes, Castro, are probably better IF defenders than Bryant, all things considered. Baez simply has better instincts and athleticism, Russell is a great choice at SS, and Bryant just isn't a 2B, while Castro can be. Meanwhile, Bryant has good speed and a good arm, meaning that, in theory, he could play a good CF. From a defensive value perspective, good CF defense is worth at least as much, if not more than, good 3B defense. Moving Bryant to CF doesn't diminish his "value-potential." In fact, it may actually enhance it.
I've been impressed with him in the OF.  With his speed, if they worked him in CF next spring, I think he would star.  If they re-sign Fowler, that's okay with me, too.
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1039 on: September 20, 2015, 11:39:28 am »
Quote from: CurtOne on September 20, 2015, 11:09:23 am
I'm not sure who's missing the point anymore.  Too many straw men and misquotes and misunderstandings.  I don't recall anyone saying we should trade one of our top prospects for a Haren type pitcher.  And when I say that probably someone gets traded this winter, I'm just going on what Theo says about using assets to obtain pitching rather than hitting.  The goal, I thought, was not just to be good enough to make the playoffs but to be dominant.  Clearly the signs are there that we are approaching that level, but I doubt the front office is going to stand pat.  Most teams that stand pat start to struggle.

Speaking of straw men, I don't think that anyone has said that the Cubs should stand pat.

I fully expect the Cubs to make trades this winter, and I fully expect that they will sign free agents.

The decision is not between standing pat and trading their best prospects.  The decision is whether the cost in terms of prospects or money is worth the value received for the prospects or money.  In MY opinion (I am not predicting what this front office will do, merely what I would do), the cost of Price on the open market will be greater than the value he adds to the team.  I believe it is better for the team to add two or three Hammel type starters than one Price for the same money.  And I believe it is better to add a couple of Hammel type starters than to trade Russell for Syndergaard (you won't get him for Castro or Baez.

The Cubs should certainly try to get better.  No one is arguing that.  The question is how best to do that.
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1040 on: September 20, 2015, 11:40:34 am »
Dave, you ignorant slut...
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1041 on: September 20, 2015, 11:56:17 am »
Management will need to think about how their starters stack up for the playoffs where a couple of dominant starters wins out over more depth but less dominance.  If they think that Arrieta and Lester are sufficient, then adding a Price is not efficient use of resources.  If they feel another top starter is needed, Price would make sense.

With the Cub offense promising to be top tier, a third #1/2 starter is probably not they way to go.  IMO.
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1042 on: September 20, 2015, 12:02:04 pm »
Quote from: CurtOne on September 20, 2015, 11:09:23 am
I'm not sure who's missing the point anymore.  Too many straw men and misquotes and misunderstandings.  I don't recall anyone saying we should trade one of our top prospects for a Haren type pitcher.  And when I say that probably someone gets traded this winter, I'm just going on what Theo says about using assets to obtain pitching rather than hitting.  The goal, I thought, was not just to be good enough to make the playoffs but to be dominant.  Clearly the signs are there that we are approaching that level, but I doubt the front office is going to stand pat.  Most teams that stand pat start to struggle.

Talk about misquotes and misunderstandings....  No one has suggested standing pat.  Many have argued against trading high ceiling, potential high impact players or prospects for players in return would only marginally increase present chances of winning.  I also expect moves this winter, and possibly even of high current value talent of high ceiling prospects or high ceiling young players who have not yet come close to reaching their potential, but I expect any trades of high ceiling young players to bring very high returns.  And absent a very high return, I would expect the high value current players, and the high ceiling young players or prospects all to return.  Moves around the margins and acquisitions without giving up any core player or potential building block players are not necessarily standing pat.
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1043 on: September 20, 2015, 12:06:15 pm »
I know Hammel has been a disappointment recently, but the truth of the matter is that he's basically been a league average starter. He's fine as a #3. Arrieta, Lester, Hammel is just fine 1, 2, 3. Hendricks is great as a #4. Price would be nice, but I'd rather make sure we can lock up our youngsters to long term deals.

If there's money for a FA TORP AND long term contracts for Russell, Bryant, etc., great. Otherwise save the money for the kids.
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1044 on: September 20, 2015, 12:17:15 pm »
Yep, that would be my plan if I were GM. As I look at the FA pitching class, lots of mid-tier guys could could do really good work for a hell of a lot less than the $250MM that Price is going to get.
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1045 on: September 20, 2015, 12:36:42 pm »
My preference would be to trade prospects for a young starter with at least three years of control left.  After everything that has happened in New York lately, I bet there's a lot of talk about Matt Harvey and the Cubs this offseason. 
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1046 on: September 20, 2015, 01:12:11 pm »
I like Hendricks quite a bit, but I'd like him even more if he were my #5 starter.
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1047 on: September 20, 2015, 01:19:35 pm »
Yes, CF is " higher" in defensive spectrum than 3B. But, moving a guy--Bryant--to CF is what defensive spectrum principles frown on. Bryant can fill in there, sure. Defensive spectrum doesn't speak to fill-in situations but to a regular basis for a significant period of time.

Think it is very, very unlikely that Bryant is Cubs regular CF in 2016.

Baez might be a better 3B than Bryant. Not sure about that because we've seen Baez at 3B so little, but probably. But, would anticipate that because he's a good SS and 2B. So, would expect that. But, his value is middle IF. Could Baez play adequate CF? Perhaps, but not going to happen on a regular basis. The guy is a natural IFer and a good one.
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1048 on: September 20, 2015, 01:37:10 pm »
Many on the board, mid-season, were very, very skeptical that Cubs would be serious contenders for WS. Let's be real about that.

Dave even said he wouldn't trade Daury Torrez for David Price because Cubs were too remote a WS shot and giving up Daury Torrez for David Price compromised the future!! Naturally, the worst offender for minimizing Cubs In 2016 is the guy patting himself on the back now. Predictable.

Guessing Theo is a bit pleasantly surprised. Also guessing Theo would have done more, and given up a bit more to upgrade at trade deadline had he possessed crystal ball. Maybe Jepsen from Rays instead of Tommy Hunter or Leake from Reds instead of Haren.

Hammel has been good this season overall but lately he sucks. In a 7-game series, he gets two starts. Worried about that.
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Re: Cubs in '15 (8/3 - 12/1)
« Reply #1049 on: September 20, 2015, 01:40:56 pm »
Quote from: Reb on September 20, 2015, 01:19:35 pm
Yes, CF is " higher" in defensive spectrum than 3B. But, moving a guy--Bryant--to CF is what defensive spectrum principles frown on. Bryant can fill in there, sure. Defensive spectrum doesn't speak to fill-in situations but to a regular basis for a significant period of time.

Think it is very, very unlikely that Bryant is Cubs regular CF in 2016.

Agree that it's unlikely, but think his defensive skill set, which is at least solid average at 3B, *might* actually profile better in CF.
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