Author Topic: Cubs in '17 - 👑👑👑 Reigning Champions Edition 👑👑👑  (Read 101821 times)

Reb

  • Guest
Not a hangover in the sense of having a condition that carries over to the next period.

Rather, all the good-fortune and random things that happen one period are simply unlikely to happen the suceeding period in the same or similar way.

The reason more Cubs didn't make the all-star game?

Not enough Cubs are having good enough seasons to be worthy of the all-star game!

Nothing to do with hangovers, fans or otherwise.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16442
I agree.  The Cubs made it through last season with no significant injuries to the pitching staff and only Schwarber among position players.  In addition, several players had excellent seasons with few prolonged slumps other than Heyward.  That is not likely to happen two years in a row.

In addition, they have aging players in Lackey, Zobrist, and the departed Montero that are beginning to show a decline in production.

There is a very good reason why World Series winners seldom repeat.  That is why it is much better to try to build a long-term dynasty than to risk the long term in return for a low probability ga mble.

Reb

  • Guest
Well, there can be no more a Nowacrat-type move than the Chapman/Gleyber deal.

So, not all about building. Go for it whenever it makes sense. All in, at times.

Whatever the philosophy, mostly random, unpredictible events can cause disappointment. That's what is happening this season, so far.

Cubs philosophy IS to build a long-term dynasty thing. Still happening (random, unpredictable events). The philosophy does not ward off what is part of the game.


Reb

  • Guest
Dave mentioned Zobrist. Good example.

Zobrist had a career year--------in 2009.

Next year, 2010, Zobrist had a lousy year very similar to this season.

Thereafter, he bounced back.

Why?

It's baseball. It's not always a linear thing. 

I would not necessarily conclude that Zobrist 2017 is an older-guy thing. Maybe, but could be the temporary injury, could be random, could be your guess or mine.

Think his poor performance a big factor in the declining offense. Kind of a glue guy in 2016 and need a strong 2nd half from him.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16442
There is no proof that Zobrist's poor year is due to his aging.  But it is probably more likely to be the result of aging at age 36 than it was at age 28.

Reb

  • Guest
Yeah, except if Zobrist bounces back after the break, then pre-break slump will be a head-scratcher--- as was his 2010 season. Or, we'll say wasn't healthy pre-break--that was the reason. Or, maybe no good explanation at all.

After the fact when his career is over, we'll see if 2016 was the last hurrah. Now, it's just guesswork.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16248
Is it a matter of multiple players not coming close to getting the most out of their ability?  Or multiple players having career years last year who are now playing at their true talent level? ...

"Career years" phrase carries baggage, "fluke", "outlier".  Rick Wilkins, Luis Gonzalez. 

reb is right, guys go up, and guys go down, without the "up" years being flukes, and without down years meaning guys are lazy.  Everybody tends to have some kind of range of reasonable outputs.  With some age-factor in that "reasonable" range. 

IMO, the cubs had an unusual number of guys perform at the high end of their "reasonable" ranges.  This year, not so many.  Return to the mean, maybe; bouncing around the mean, yes.  Yes, some of those same guys may have some better years ahead.  It's just the way it goes. 

But I don't think it's a mental shakeup or a motivational speech that's needed.  I think they basically need more talent, and a new shot next year.  They need to add talent.

There has been a real decline in talent.  Age and contracts wait for no team. 
*Fowler with Almora. 
*Hammel with Anderson.  (Hammel won 15 games, with a better ERA than anybody in this year's rotation.)   
*Lackey with Lackey (pitchers get older.) 
*Lester with Lester (pitchers get older.)  Looking ahead, I suspect 2017 Lester is more what's reasonable to expect for 18-20 than 2016 2.44ERA Lester. 

Need to add more talent, and hope some younger guys do better.  Lackey-Montero-Arrieta cash, that's $45+ of not-that-winning salary that can be reinvested in raises and perhaps some new talent. 

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 20339
The Cubs have plenty of talent - they just need to produce at the level they should.  Theo said as much today, and he's right.  They need to add pitching, because this regression to the mean (both in terms of injury and performance) was inevitable.  But given the norms for a hitter's development curve by age, it was reasonable to say the Cubs projected to be as good offensively as anyone in the National League.  They're exactly average, and that's with a relatively normal injury impact.

You want to blame losing Fowler?  Well, Jay has been pretty darn good when he's been given the chance to play.  Maddon hasn't helped matters with his incessant lineup tinkering and nonsensical batting order choices (like putting Schwarber at leadoff and sticking with it for two months despite its obvious catastrophic failure) but in the end, too many guys are simply underperforming.  You can argue all day about the reasons why, but until that fact changes this is going to continue to be a mediocre club.  No point in waiting for a savior trade to turn the season around - change comes from within.

Reb

  • Guest
We probably spend a bit too much energy lamenting the Cubs current inexplicable NL-average offense.

As Craig points out, look at the starting rotation compared to 2016.

Cubs current starting pitching ERA is 4.63. That is not good.

In 2016, it was 2.96.  More than 1 1/2 runs fewer per game!

If seems like we too often fall behind early by a run or two, yes, it's true---compared to 2016.

At 2.96 ERA in 2016---second best in NL in 2016 was 3.60 (Dodgers). Huge difference at the top.

2.96 compared to 4.63. Yeah, you're going to lose more games.

Also recall that the 2016 Cubs SP ERA was dramatically better than Cubs SP FIP. Way better. We discussed that a year ago. Luck? Splendid defense? In any case, not sustainable.

Don't think anyone really expected a repeat of the 2016 SP numbers. But, everything is worse---and more than expected. Stuff happens, especially with pitching.

Don't think it will help for starting rotation to get angry, more pumped, stomp around more. Maybe some of it is pitching into November last year. That's one theory. Some is just the normal volatility of pitchers. Hendricks wasn't so hot early... and then got hurt. Maybe Lackey's feet hurt. Arrieta's mechanics off. Lester--not his best year. Stuff happens. It's baseball. Don't think it's the starting pitchers clubhouse vibe.

Anyway, just with free agency if nothing else, Cubs will have revamped rotation in 2018.

Typically, you pay an extra premium to deal at trade deadline compared to off-season. And, a lot can happen between now and end of July. Cubs could be in first place or be 8 or 9 games out of first place three weeks frim now. That affects what you should do. But, if Stroman or Gray is going to be moved at trade deadline, maybe that's the time to make that move because won't be available later. Obviously, Theo sees the big picture.

In contrast to the rotation, Cubs position player group is loaded with talent. Don't see a talent gap at all there. No concerns. Just hit better. What do you add for now and 2018? A back-up catcher? Need to leave enough CF plate appearances for Happ, so not really keen on adding there. Where else?

Just hit better. Think it's a really good position player group. So talented that might have to give up a major talent there to acquire a SP. We'll see what happens.




  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7414
Carrie Muskat‏ @CarrieMuskat  8m8 minutes ago

 #Cubs may make roster move today. Just saw Floro

Goodbye Leathersich.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3199
If it wasn't for a rain delay, I suppose this season would be utter hell.

It is what it is.  They are an underachieving young talented ball club.  They have a good manager.  And they have Theo.  And I believe a bright future overall for this franchise.

So I'll watch every game going forward knowing that there are a plethora of youtube videos showing thankfully not what might have been, but what they actually did.

guest61

  • Guest
After last year if they went 0-162 plus lost all 30 ST games I'd find it very hard to bitch and that's why I haven't.

I still fully believe we'll run off and leave the rest of the NL Central and make the playoffs though and I do suspect reinforcements are coming and coming soon.

I also suspect Theo and Jed have a more clear view of things and have a better understanding of who has a future here and who doesn't because of our current struggles.


  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16248
We probably spend a bit too much energy lamenting the Cubs current inexplicable NL-average offense.

As Craig points out, look at the starting rotation compared to 2016.

Cubs current starting pitching ERA is 4.63. That is not good.

In 2016, it was 2.96.  More than 1 1/2 runs fewer per game!

Exactly.  Last year was a historically good year rotation-wise.  This year, Eddie Butler has the best ERA. 

Don't see how we should be viewing this as underachieving when you're going to battle each day with one of Eddie Butler, Mike Montgomery, John Lackey, Brett Anderson, 2017 Arrieta, 2017 Hendricks, or 2017 Lester.  It's not really a championship rotation. 

Each of Lester/Lackey/Hendricks/Arrieta has a high HR/9 ratio of 1.1 or higher. 

Reb

  • Guest
The rotation can use some help. And, to be sure, pretty unlikely to win a Championship with a 4.63 rotation ERA.

But, my point wasn't that can't win with this rotation. Not going to win 100+ games with this rotation but can still win. Point is that rotation has been poor so far and that explains a whole lot about a being a .500 club---not just, or even mostly, about the offense.

Lots of room for rotation improvement. Think it will be difficult to bolster significantly at trade deadline, but possible. Think the rotation is better than a 4.63 rotation.

If you can tell me will be 4.63 AFTER the break too.... then, yeah, Cubs won't win.