Author Topic: Hot Stove 2011  (Read 5101 times)

Playtwo

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2011, 05:49:49 pm »
Z has a fierce desire to win.  He also exudes an air of selfishness, always ready to show up a teammate after a miscue.  I think it would be the right statement to make to be willing to eat the vast majority of Z's contract in a trade.  Z just isn't good enough to warrant tolerating the negatives that he brings.

ticohans

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2011, 06:10:48 pm »
Pitching wins may be meaningless over one season, but hardly over a long career.  How many starting pitchers that have been in the league more than 5 years have a higher won/loss percentage than Zambrano?

you're suggesting that z is the same pitcher he was back when he got all his wins. he's not. this is a straw man on par with jes.

FDISK

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2011, 06:17:44 pm »
"The cat, having sat upon a hot stove lid, will not sit upon a hot stove lid again. But he won't sit upon a cold stove lid, either."

I'm not sure that quote has any application in baseball (even in the 'Hot Stove" topic)... but I'm pretty sure that:

hot lid = Carlos Zambrano
Cat's a$$ = Me

Chris27

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2011, 06:19:08 pm »
Quote
He walked out on his team, as, I remember, did Sandberg a couple of times.

You're not counting his retirements as walking out on his team, are you?

CurtOne

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2011, 06:22:35 pm »
Dave, I think you see the difference between a player losing his temper or having words with a teammate and the behavior of Carlos Zambrano.  You have to be putting all of us on.

Ron

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2011, 06:28:21 pm »
Is it possible that Jes has taken over DaveP's identity?
 ???

davep

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2011, 07:05:17 pm »
I have never understood the antagonism and resentment exhibited towards Zambrano.

I resent the fact that Ramirez makes millions of dollars per year and stands at home plate and watches to see if the ball he hit goes over the fence.  I resent Soriano and Ramirez trotting down to first base after a ground ball that might well be turned into an error with a little hustle.  I resent any professional that refuses to put forth his best effort.  But Zambrano has never loafed in his life.  Most of the criticisms of him are due to an excess of effort rather than a lack thereof.

Yes, Zambrano is paid too much.  That is reason to resent the management that gave him the contract (a contract that no one on this board objected to at the time it was signed).  But why resent the guy that got it, and is obviously trying his best.

As far as most of his problems have been concerned, they are mostly trivial.  If he breaks a gatorade stand, fine him 100,000 dollars and hope he does it again.  If he tells the clubhouse guy that he is retiring, suspend him for a month and save a couple of million dollars, and be grateful that he won more than he lost on a lousy team.  True, he hit a team mate.  But a couple of years ago, Fielder hit HIS team mate in the dugout, and everyone thought it was a great manifestation of his competative spirit.  And they now want him on the Cubs.

I wouldn't put up with any of this stuff on my little league team.  But we are not trying to build character at this level.  We are trying to win, and Zambrano has helped us do that.  If we can improve the team by getting rid of him, great.  But giving him away hurts, not helps the team.

Tico - Zambrano is no longer as good as he was prior to 2008.  But during that time he has still been a winning pitcher on a losing team.

CurtOne

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2011, 07:28:10 pm »
You're totally misreading.  This is not ANGER at Z.  Nor is it resentment or antagonism.  It's just "enough is enough." 

JeffH

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2011, 07:33:11 pm »
None of us can know for sure, but there is a genuine chance that the Cubs organization is truly amateurish and dysfunctional.

Getting rid of Zambrano (and, potentially, others) may be necessary to "change the culture".

I trust our baseball operations leadership to make the right decision.

ticohans

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2011, 09:12:25 pm »
"Tico - Zambrano is no longer as good as he was prior to 2008.  But during that time he has still been a winning pitcher on a losing team."

And the jes-like behavior continues...

davep

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2011, 09:18:19 pm »
Please feel free to place me on ignore.  It was presumptuous of me to advance ideas that are contrary to yours.

Jes Beard

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2011, 09:30:25 pm »
I would have had no problem with the Cubs getting rid of Zambrano after punching Barrett.... though the team was far better off for getting rid of Barrett.

And his behavior at other times has also been out of line, but the suspension last year, for a relatively minor dugout rant seemed a bit excessive, though when combined with an insistence that the learn how to control his temper seemed to make some sense (even if it would have made more sense to have him having already done that in the off season).

But the restricted list this season for cleaning out his locker and essentially talking to himself about retiring (no teammate was present and he was talking to no one with the Cubs) seemed a bit absurd.  I suspect he could have filed and won a grievance over it.

I wonder what the folks complaining about Zambrano would have said if they had Al Kaline on their team when Kaline got mad after striking out and slammed his bat in the dugout and broke his arm.... or if they had Ron Santo get mad and try to strangle his manager, needing to be restrained by his teammates.

I trust our baseball operations leadership to make the right decision.

.... until you don't.

Just remember that the baseball leadership we have now is the same leadership which allowed Red Sox players to drink in the clubhouse during games and allowed the entire team to slip away from Francona during one of the game's historic collapses.


Please feel free to place me on ignore.  It was presumptuous of me to advance ideas that are contrary to yours.

While tico has a fair number of posts, you might actually have to look fairly hard to find anything that would resembling an original idea from him.

Deeg

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2011, 09:32:23 pm »
And again, ask Barrett about those temper tantrums.  What Z did to him is one of the most vile and disgusting things a teammate has done to another in recent memory.  And Hendry letting him get away with it was a sure sign that he was jumping the shark hard.

davep

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2011, 09:36:04 pm »
I know that Barrett and Zambrano had a fight in the dugout, but I heard nothing more about it.  What is the real story?

Jes Beard

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Re: Hot Stove 2011
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2011, 09:43:05 pm »
I don't know....  but it was vile and disgusting.