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General Category => Archives => Topic started by: Dave23 on November 01, 2011, 11:38:17 am

Title: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Dave23 on November 01, 2011, 11:38:17 am
Hope springs eternal...
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Cactus on November 01, 2011, 11:38:47 am
Trade Jes to NSBB.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: JR on November 01, 2011, 11:40:57 am
Koyie Hill for Matt Kemp
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Deeg on November 01, 2011, 11:59:04 am
Trade Jes to NSBB.

You'd have to eat the entire contract and throw in a couple of A prospects.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Cactus on November 01, 2011, 01:04:19 pm
(http://www.bleachernation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/lukewarm-stove-225x300.jpg)
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Ron on November 01, 2011, 01:49:44 pm
Pessimist.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 01, 2011, 01:52:09 pm
Koyie Hill for Matt Kemp

That would be foolish.  LA is merely selling high.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: wmljohn on November 01, 2011, 02:16:06 pm
I didn't bother much at all last season...

Should I start now?
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 01, 2011, 02:52:59 pm
No.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: brjones on November 01, 2011, 04:26:08 pm
Ok, first crazy trade proposal…I think it makes sense on paper, but would have about a one in a million chance of happening in real life because it includes too many moving parts (3 teams and 4 bad contracts).  But it’s pre-hot stove season, so speculation is fun…

To Cubs: Alex Rios
To Mariners: Adam Dunn + a lot of money
To White Sox: Alfonso Soriano & Chone Figgins

I think all teams could benefit from the switching out of players:

Cubs: Rios hasn’t been as good a hitter as Soriano, but has similar tools at the plate.  More importantly, he’s more athletic on defense and the bases, so a rebound anywhere close to his career stats would give him real value in the NL.

Mariners: They dump a player who they badly want gone.  If Dunn can rebound partially back to his pre-2011 form (something like .325 OBP, 20-25 HR), he really helps the Mariners with their lack of power.

White Sox: Soriano was clearly the best hitter of these four in 2011—it wasn’t even close.  So they get the best hitter, and can hide his defense as a DH.  Figgins is just a thrown-in to even out the deal, but maybe he still has something left as a supersub in a more hitter-friendly ballpark.

The biggest problem is the money.  The Cubs save $6 million each year 2012-2014.  The White Sox come out roughly even in the first two years, but save $9 million the third year.  But the Mariners would owe $6 million more in each of the first two years, and $15 million more in the third year.  To make this work, the Cubs and White Sox would probably have to send most (if not all) of their savings to the Mariners (meaning the Mariners would essentially get Dunn for free in 2014).  I doubt the teams would be willing to do that, even though a change of scenery could benefit all players & teams.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Dave23 on November 02, 2011, 04:30:47 pm
I have a friend who follows baseball (and the Cardinals) the way we all follow the Cubs.

He is convinced that the Cards competition for Pujols is...the Rangers. The more I think about it...they have a ton of pitching depth in their system...they could take CJ Wilson money and give it to Pujols...and get a better glove and bat at 1B, and having a valuable trade chip in Young, or move him elsewhere...

He also thinks Oquendo is their next manager.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: CurtOne on November 02, 2011, 04:34:15 pm
Dave, I agree.  That's the scuttlebutt on Cardinal boards.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: brjones on November 02, 2011, 04:35:51 pm
I was listening to the ESPN podcast earlier today, and Keith Law was certain that the Rangers would go hard after either Pujols of Fielder.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: StrikeZone on November 02, 2011, 04:51:27 pm
I still expect Josh Vitters to be traded.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: brjones on November 04, 2011, 02:11:57 pm
Fangraphs article about Martin Prado's value, which concludes by determining he's worth more than he'll get paid but shouldn't cost much in a trade:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/martin-prado-on-the-move/

I think the Cubs should make a strong push for him right now.  From 2008 until he went down with a staph infection in June of this year, he was pretty similar to the player Mark DeRosa was when he was with the Cubs.  This article makes it sound like Prado might be available for something like one of Flaherty/LeMahieu and a second lesser player.  With as much uncertainty there is with this team in all the positions he can play, it would be nice to have a DeRosa-like player on this team.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 04, 2011, 06:32:22 pm
Fangraphs article about Martin Prado's value, which concludes by determining he's worth more than he'll get paid but shouldn't cost much in a trade

I love seeing things like that.... because they make so little sense.

They amount to the following:

"No on else is sharp enough to know what I do, that this guy is really pretty good.  No one else knows it.  Not his GM or any other GM in the game.  And even though I am here in print in something the entire world can see am explaining why he is worth more than his team or other teams think, and even though I believe what I have written will persuade you, and I hope it will also persuade the Cubs, it clearly won't persuade any GM's in the game so the Cubs could get him for a song."

Its almost as if they think they write in invisible ink that only Cub fans and Cub management can read....
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: brjones on November 07, 2011, 04:50:28 pm
According to MLB Trade Rumors, the Marlins are meeting with (and may have already made an offer to) Jose Reyes.  Both Pujols and Fielder are also on their radar, with Ozzie pushing hard for one of them.  Don't know how much of that I believe...
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 07, 2011, 06:45:03 pm
It is hard to imagine that the Marlins can draw enough fans to pay for any of the three players.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: StrikeZone on November 07, 2011, 11:42:52 pm
It is hard to imagine that the Marlins can draw enough fans to pay for any of the three players.

That's never stopped the Marlins from signing players before.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Cactus on November 08, 2011, 12:08:40 pm
Royals interested in Carlos Zambrano

http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/cubs-talk/post/Kaplan-Royals-interested-in-Zambrano?blockID=590086&feedID=661&awid=6050278776360301231-914

That has to be unlikely.    Big Z likes to hit too much
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 08, 2011, 03:06:55 pm
"That way if he was a problem in the clubhouse or did not perform on the field they could release him without absorbing a major financial blow. "

If the Cubs are going to eat the contract if Zambrano acts up at the new club, why not just keep him, and eat the contract if he acts up with his old club.

If the new management get's rid of Zambrano just to get rid of him, they are no smarter than the old management.  Zambrano has been a successful pitcher, and his value has certainly surpassed any "chemistry" problems.  He isn't worth 18 million per year, but if they have to eat, say 13 million just to get rid of him, they certainly won't bet a more valuable pitcher to replace him for 5 million.

Just keep him, and let his manager earn his money.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: brjones on November 08, 2011, 03:10:06 pm
He isn't worth 18 million per year, but if they have to eat, say 13 million just to get rid of him, they certainly won't bet a more valuable pitcher to replace him for 5 million.

If he pitches how he did in 2011, I'm not sure that's true. 
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: CurtOne on November 08, 2011, 03:17:18 pm
"That way if he was a problem in the clubhouse or did not perform on the field they could release him without absorbing a major financial blow. "

If the Cubs are going to eat the contract if Zambrano acts up at the new club, why not just keep him, and eat the contract if he acts up with his old club.

If the new management get's rid of Zambrano just to get rid of him, they are no smarter than the old management.  Zambrano has been a successful pitcher, and his value has certainly surpassed any "chemistry" problems.  He isn't worth 18 million per year, but if they have to eat, say 13 million just to get rid of him, they certainly won't bet a more valuable pitcher to replace him for 5 million.

Just keep him, and let his manager earn his money.

I'll repeat what I said a while back.  As an administrator I have NEVER regretted giving a student a second chance.  I have ALWAYS regretted giving a student a third chance.

He who ignores history is doomed to repeat it.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Or having Dutch genes.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 08, 2011, 03:57:53 pm
If he pitches how he did in 2011, I'm not sure that's true. 

No one on the staff won more than a single game more than Zambrano did.  And he had an ERA about equal to Dempster, who will be on the team next year.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 08, 2011, 04:02:37 pm
I'll repeat what I said a while back.  As an administrator I have NEVER regretted giving a student a second chance.  I have ALWAYS regretted giving a student a third chance.

He who ignores history is doomed to repeat it.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Or having Dutch genes.

Would you expel a student that was late a third time?

It isn't like Zambrano killed a team member, or voted for Obama.  He had an adolescent fit after ONE game during the year, and said some stupid things.  he can do that once a year forever, and still be a valuable pitcher.  It is extremely unlikely that the Cubs will have 5 starting pitchers next year that will outperform Zambrano.

Curt seems to be extremely concerned with a Dutchman's jeans.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: brjones on November 08, 2011, 04:23:29 pm
No one on the staff won more than a single game more than Zambrano did.  And he had an ERA about equal to Dempster, who will be on the team next year.

Pitching wins are meaningless.  All you have to do is look at Matt Garza's win total compared to anyone else on this team, and that becomes clear.

All Dempster's peripherals (K%, BB%, HR%) were right in line with where he had been the last several years.  According to Fangraphs, his fielding independent stats (FIP and xFIP) were virtually identical to 2009 and 2010, and just a little worse than 2008.  After his awful April, the results matched the peripherals too.  He threw 200 innings.  He was about the same pitcher he has been since 2009, but with terrible luck for the first month of the season. 

In contrast, Zambrano's K% cratered.  His HR% skyrocketed.  He hasn't thrown 200 innings in a season since 2007, so I think it's safe to say his days as a real innings eater are over.  To his credit, his BB% dropped.  And his FIP and xFIP both showed him to be a little unlucky (though not nearly as unlucky as Dempster).  But there were definitely some warning signs in his peripherals that he should have struggled.

There's no upside to Zambrano anymore.  He's a lame duck mid-rotation starter if everything goes right, but more likely a back end guy who may erupt at any time.  You can find several back end starters on the market for $5 million or so who haven't been suspended by their own team 2 years in a row.  It's time to move on.  And I'm saying this as someone who has been one of the few consistent Zambrano supporters on this board for the last 3-4 years.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: CurtOne on November 08, 2011, 04:24:14 pm
"Would you expel a student that was late a third time?"

Oh, good grief.  I'm talking about an offense that would normally lead to suspension or expulsion.  I've given second chances when, perhaps, I should have expelled someone.  Third chances are too many.

He beat up his own catcher.  He showed up teammates on the field.  He threw one temper tantrum after another in the dugout.  He murdered several Gatorade machines in cold gatorade.  He walked out on his team.  There are class organizations that wouldn't have tolerated one of those events, much less several.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Deeg on November 08, 2011, 04:28:55 pm
Ask Michael Barrett how trivial Zambrano's tantrums have been.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 08, 2011, 04:44:56 pm
Teams that get rid of good players because of "temper tantrums" don't do very well over the long run.  And Gatorade machines are rather cheap.  He walked out on his team, as, I remember, did Sandberg a couple of times.

I don't know what you believe are class organizations, but the old time Yankees, the St Louis Gas House Gang and the Oakland As had much more turmoil in their clubhouses, and still played at a rather high level.

Dennis Rodman created much more controversy with the Bulls than Zambrano did with the Cubs, and yet added much to the team.

I would expect a little league team to refuse to deal with this type of behavior.  A major league franchaise has to be reasonable.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 08, 2011, 04:46:43 pm
Pitching wins may be meaningless over one season, but hardly over a long career.  How many starting pitchers that have been in the league more than 5 years have a higher won/loss percentage than Zambrano?
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Playtwo on November 08, 2011, 05:49:49 pm
Z has a fierce desire to win.  He also exudes an air of selfishness, always ready to show up a teammate after a miscue.  I think it would be the right statement to make to be willing to eat the vast majority of Z's contract in a trade.  Z just isn't good enough to warrant tolerating the negatives that he brings.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: ticohans on November 08, 2011, 06:10:48 pm
Pitching wins may be meaningless over one season, but hardly over a long career.  How many starting pitchers that have been in the league more than 5 years have a higher won/loss percentage than Zambrano?

you're suggesting that z is the same pitcher he was back when he got all his wins. he's not. this is a straw man on par with jes.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: FDISK on November 08, 2011, 06:17:44 pm
"The cat, having sat upon a hot stove lid, will not sit upon a hot stove lid again. But he won't sit upon a cold stove lid, either."

I'm not sure that quote has any application in baseball (even in the 'Hot Stove" topic)... but I'm pretty sure that:

hot lid = Carlos Zambrano
Cat's a$$ = Me
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Chris27 on November 08, 2011, 06:19:08 pm
Quote
He walked out on his team, as, I remember, did Sandberg a couple of times.

You're not counting his retirements as walking out on his team, are you?
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: CurtOne on November 08, 2011, 06:22:35 pm
Dave, I think you see the difference between a player losing his temper or having words with a teammate and the behavior of Carlos Zambrano.  You have to be putting all of us on.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Ron on November 08, 2011, 06:28:21 pm
Is it possible that Jes has taken over DaveP's identity?
 ???
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 08, 2011, 07:05:17 pm
I have never understood the antagonism and resentment exhibited towards Zambrano.

I resent the fact that Ramirez makes millions of dollars per year and stands at home plate and watches to see if the ball he hit goes over the fence.  I resent Soriano and Ramirez trotting down to first base after a ground ball that might well be turned into an error with a little hustle.  I resent any professional that refuses to put forth his best effort.  But Zambrano has never loafed in his life.  Most of the criticisms of him are due to an excess of effort rather than a lack thereof.

Yes, Zambrano is paid too much.  That is reason to resent the management that gave him the contract (a contract that no one on this board objected to at the time it was signed).  But why resent the guy that got it, and is obviously trying his best.

As far as most of his problems have been concerned, they are mostly trivial.  If he breaks a gatorade stand, fine him 100,000 dollars and hope he does it again.  If he tells the clubhouse guy that he is retiring, suspend him for a month and save a couple of million dollars, and be grateful that he won more than he lost on a lousy team.  True, he hit a team mate.  But a couple of years ago, Fielder hit HIS team mate in the dugout, and everyone thought it was a great manifestation of his competative spirit.  And they now want him on the Cubs.

I wouldn't put up with any of this stuff on my little league team.  But we are not trying to build character at this level.  We are trying to win, and Zambrano has helped us do that.  If we can improve the team by getting rid of him, great.  But giving him away hurts, not helps the team.

Tico - Zambrano is no longer as good as he was prior to 2008.  But during that time he has still been a winning pitcher on a losing team.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: CurtOne on November 08, 2011, 07:28:10 pm
You're totally misreading.  This is not ANGER at Z.  Nor is it resentment or antagonism.  It's just "enough is enough." 
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: JeffH on November 08, 2011, 07:33:11 pm
None of us can know for sure, but there is a genuine chance that the Cubs organization is truly amateurish and dysfunctional.

Getting rid of Zambrano (and, potentially, others) may be necessary to "change the culture".

I trust our baseball operations leadership to make the right decision.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: ticohans on November 08, 2011, 09:12:25 pm
"Tico - Zambrano is no longer as good as he was prior to 2008.  But during that time he has still been a winning pitcher on a losing team."

And the jes-like behavior continues...
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 08, 2011, 09:18:19 pm
Please feel free to place me on ignore.  It was presumptuous of me to advance ideas that are contrary to yours.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 08, 2011, 09:30:25 pm
I would have had no problem with the Cubs getting rid of Zambrano after punching Barrett.... though the team was far better off for getting rid of Barrett.

And his behavior at other times has also been out of line, but the suspension last year, for a relatively minor dugout rant seemed a bit excessive, though when combined with an insistence that the learn how to control his temper seemed to make some sense (even if it would have made more sense to have him having already done that in the off season).

But the restricted list this season for cleaning out his locker and essentially talking to himself about retiring (no teammate was present and he was talking to no one with the Cubs) seemed a bit absurd.  I suspect he could have filed and won a grievance over it.

I wonder what the folks complaining about Zambrano would have said if they had Al Kaline on their team when Kaline got mad after striking out and slammed his bat in the dugout and broke his arm.... or if they had Ron Santo get mad and try to strangle his manager, needing to be restrained by his teammates.

I trust our baseball operations leadership to make the right decision.

.... until you don't.

Just remember that the baseball leadership we have now is the same leadership which allowed Red Sox players to drink in the clubhouse during games and allowed the entire team to slip away from Francona during one of the game's historic collapses.


Please feel free to place me on ignore.  It was presumptuous of me to advance ideas that are contrary to yours.

While tico has a fair number of posts, you might actually have to look fairly hard to find anything that would resembling an original idea from him.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Deeg on November 08, 2011, 09:32:23 pm
And again, ask Barrett about those temper tantrums.  What Z did to him is one of the most vile and disgusting things a teammate has done to another in recent memory.  And Hendry letting him get away with it was a sure sign that he was jumping the shark hard.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 08, 2011, 09:36:04 pm
I know that Barrett and Zambrano had a fight in the dugout, but I heard nothing more about it.  What is the real story?
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 08, 2011, 09:43:05 pm
I don't know....  but it was vile and disgusting.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Deeg on November 09, 2011, 01:06:52 am
Barrett made an error, Z showed him up in the dugout, they went down the tunnel shouting at each other and Z sucker punched Barrett in the face and put him in the hospital.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Santo4HofF on November 09, 2011, 05:16:27 am
Cliff Floyd told the story of the fight last week on MLB radio. He said he came out of the training room and Z was pacing yhe club house with his shirt off ranting how he was going to kill Barret. Barret came into the locker room to talk to Z. Cliff told Barret that if Z starts throwing punches you are on your own.  Well the fight was one sided with Michael bloodied.  Teamates showed up and asked Cliff why he didn't try to break it up. Cliff told them he didn't want his a.. kicked too.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 09, 2011, 07:59:09 am
Barrett made an error, Z showed him up in the dugout, they went down the tunnel shouting at each other and Z sucker punched Barrett in the face and put him in the hospital.

How do you "sucker punch" someone in the face?

What does it mean to "sucker punch" someone?

I always took it to mean to catch someone completely off guard, catching them with a punch which they did not see coming, and could not have anticipated.

But you have described a situation in which Zambrano hit Barrett, in the face, and after they had been shouting at each other and left the dugout.

My memory of Barrett is that his eyes were right there in the front of his face, meaning he would have been able to see any punch thrown to his face, and anyone being shouted at by another person, and who effectively "steps outside" with that shouting person so they are out of sight of others would really have to be pretty slow to be very surprised if the shouts escalated to violence.

Any chance, Deeg, that you might have some general hostility toward Zambrano coloring your description of what happened.... particularly that reference to "sucker punched"?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sucker+punch
sucker punch
n
1. a sudden surprise punch, esp from behind
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 09, 2011, 11:00:09 am
If Zambrano hit Barrett with no warning, that would certainly be a "sucker punch".  Is that how Cliff described it?  If so, Zambrano should have been suspended for the rest of the year, and expelled forever, if it happened again.

Did Zambrano ever do it again, or was that a one time thing?
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 09, 2011, 04:18:27 pm
dave, if you and I are facing each other, and I am yelling at you, and your eyes are open, I might well be described as punching you without provocation, but it can't really qualify as a "sucker punch."  And that is not just my definition.  It is the commonly accepted definition for the phrase.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Ron on November 09, 2011, 05:46:40 pm

I don't know this video promoting Yoennis Cespedes has already been posted, but in case it hasn't, here it is.[/font]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREZHmOR1bg&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREZHmOR1bg&feature=player_embedded)


People who resent Soriano watching his HRs are going to just love Cespedes - who has perfected the art.  He is also adept at catching fly balls behind his back - that should be useful.  He's pretty strong, apparently able to bench press 350# and leg press 1300#.  And  he can do a 45" "box jump."  He also seem to like hip hop music.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: CurtOne on November 09, 2011, 06:13:46 pm
Reminds me a bit of Sammy.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 09, 2011, 06:35:16 pm
Looks like he might be very talented, but unless he came far cheaper than I would expect, I hope the Cubs pass.  Just not a big fan of players who stand at homeplate to watch their HR.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Cubsin on November 09, 2011, 08:58:53 pm
I have no idea whether Cespedes is a potential superstar or a huge waste of money, but I do trust the Theocracy to make a good decision either way. With the Dice-K experience behind him, Theo will only outbid all of the other teams if he's comfortable that the Ricketts' money would be well-spent.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 09, 2011, 10:25:13 pm
I have no idea whether Cespedes is a potential superstar or a huge waste of money, but I do trust the Theocracy to make a good decision either way. With the Dice-K experience behind him, Theo will only outbid all of the other teams if he's comfortable that the Ricketts' money would be well-spent.

You mean like the way he handled the bidding for Crawford?

Dice-K was not the only bad contract Theo negotiated, nor does adding Crawford come close to exhausting the list.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 09, 2011, 11:00:06 pm
Epstein has made some major mistakes over the course of his time in Boston.  Crawford, Lackey and Dice-k being just some of them.

However, judging talent is an inexact science at best, and every GM has made some terrible moves.  The fact remains that Epstein (and for that matter every GM) has much more information to go on than anyone on this board. 

That said, I hope we sign him.  It is always fun to bring in someone considered to be a good prospect.  At least it is fun for much of the first year.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 09, 2011, 11:12:03 pm
No argument with that, Dave.  I agree completely that the Theocracy are in a better position than we are to make intelligent decisions about personnel.  I simply disagree with the idea that he is infallible, and that appears to be the growing consensus among folks posting here.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 09, 2011, 11:17:06 pm
Then you must have missed the post I made a couple of days ago, making the same point.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Cubsin on November 10, 2011, 02:32:44 am
No GM is always right, and no GM is always wrong. Theo, Jed, Justin and the rest of the front office will make a state-of-the-art evaluation of Cespedes and tell Ricketts what they think he's worth.  Then Ricketts will decide whether to make no offer, make a lower offer, make the recommended offer or make a higher offer.

That doesn't guarantee that Cespedes won't be a total bust for the Cubs or a Hall-of-Famer for another franchise. But they will spend the time and resources to do the evaluation properly. A prospect of his caliber is certainly more important to the Cubs than the compensation packages to the Red Sox and Padres.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: JeffH on November 10, 2011, 07:27:50 am
Theo, Jed, Justin and the rest of the front office will make a state-of-the-art evaluation of Cespedes and tell Ricketts what they think he's worth.  Then Ricketts will decide whether to make no offer, make a lower offer, make the recommended offer or make a higher offer.

I highly doubt this is what will happen.

The baseball operations leadership will make the determination of whether or not to bid all on its own.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 10, 2011, 07:59:28 am
Then you must have missed the post I made a couple of days ago, making the same point.

Not at all, Dave, but many here need to be reminded of it.  At least daily.

The post immediately after yours above, Cubsin refers to the Theocracy making "a state-of-the-art evaluation of Cespedes and tell Ricketts what they think he's worth."

"State-of-the-art"?

Folks here truly seem convinced that the Theocracy is a divinity.  And in the next post, Jeff, JEFF mind you, actually tries to elevated them above what Cubsin did, insisting that given the glow-in-the-dark brilliance of the collective Theocracy, the "baseball operations leadership" of the Cubs would be deciding all on their lonesome and without any need for ownership approval whether to make a contract offer in the tens of millions of dollars to Cespedes.

I did not miss your point, and it is one both of us have made multiple times.  It does, however, appear that many others have.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: JeffH on November 10, 2011, 08:04:09 am
Jes, it's been stated publicly that Epstein will have a budget that he and his team can spend as they see fit.

Why would they need ownership approval?

For that matter, I assume (but do not know for certain) that it was the same way with Hendry and previous ownership.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 10, 2011, 08:15:57 am
Cespedes would not involve a one year budget commitment.  Even if Ricketts has told Epstein he did not need to run FA signings by him, it is hard to believe that for a multi-year, high-dollar signing such as Cespedes will involved, that within a month of becoming taking the job Epstein would be so foolish as to decide to meaningfully bid without discussing things with Ricketts.

And if Epstein did enter into such bidding without discussing things with Ricketts, there are a lot of folks who need to re-evaluate how often Ricketts actually is the smartest guy in the room.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 10, 2011, 11:00:44 am
If they decide to make a 50 million dollar offer, I would be surprised if they didn't run it past Ricketts first, just out of courtesy if nothing else.

It is the kind of thing the boss should be aware of, but should almost never interfere with.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: craig on November 10, 2011, 11:28:08 am
If they decide to make a 50 million dollar offer, I would be surprised if they didn't run it past Ricketts first, just out of courtesy if nothing else.

It is the kind of thing the boss should be aware of, but should almost never interfere with.

Just as a token courtesy, sure.  At my institution, if a department needs to hire somebody, they decide who they want to hire, make the choice, and a higher-up actually needs to check it off and make an offer official.  But it's a 100% formality.   

I completely agree with Jeff.  Ricketts hired new management, he has obviously felt a shared general vision for how to attack, he's entrusted Theo with budget, and and he's going to let the new guys decide how to implement and spend that budget. 

I suspect management needs to appeal to owner only in the case where they'll need to go beyond standard budget.  I think Hendry got special permission to exceed his allocated budget in order to sign Greg Maddux.  I think Curt always felt that MacP should have pursued/received special permission to extend beyond the budget in order to sign Pudge Rodriguez back in 01 or 02 or whenever that was.  Otherwise, I think management just works within it's budget and does whatever it judges best, lets the owner know, and perhaps has it's moves rubber-stamped. 
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: CurtOne on November 10, 2011, 11:43:40 am
"Curt always felt that MacP should have pursued/received special permission to extend beyond the budget in order to sign Pudge Rodriguez back in 01 or 02 or whenever that was. "

Yep.  2003.  In hindsight, that might have been the difference maker.  At least he wouldn't have been on the Marlins to kill us.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 10, 2011, 12:33:38 pm
Craig - if it is within the budget, there is seldom any reason to run something past the boss.

But although I have not seen any firm numbers, it is my understanding that the Cubs spent somewhat less than 10 million dollars last year on signing domestic and international prospects.  My guess is that 50 million dollars for one player would exceed whatever increase Ricketts has put into this year's budget.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Cactus on November 10, 2011, 12:44:18 pm
Quote
In a video for ESPN, Bowden predicts that Crawford will have a “bounce-back”  year in 2012, but predicts that it will come, in part, with the Chicago Cubs.

“I think by the July 31 trade deadline, the Red Sox and Cubs will work out a deal to send Carl Crawford to the Cubs to play left field at Wrigley Field,” Bowden says.  “I don’t think there’s any question Crawford will hit 20 homers, steal 40 bases, and play plus defense.”

Bowden points out his belief that Red Sox owner John Henry didn’t want to sign Crawford in the first place, and that Epstein is still convinced Crawford will become the player he was expected to be before signing that monster contract. Taken together, Bowden concludes that Epstein will make a move before July 31 to bring Crawford to the Cubs.
Quote
Hopefully, though, it’s a mistake that he’s learned from, and doesn’t want to duplicate with the Cubs. That goes for new free agent signings, and for re-acquiring Crawford, himself.
http://www.bleachernation.com/2011/11/10/lukewarm-stove-carl-crawford-to-the-chicago-cubs/ (http://www.bleachernation.com/2011/11/10/lukewarm-stove-carl-crawford-to-the-chicago-cubs/)
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 10, 2011, 12:53:16 pm
If we could get Crawford at a decent salary, I wouldn't mind having him play LF, with Soriano on the bench.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: brjones on November 10, 2011, 12:57:41 pm
Crawford has always been very overrated, I'd have no interest unless the Red Sox took Soriano and paid a lot of the money from 2015-2017.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: bitterman on November 10, 2011, 01:03:47 pm
Completely agree with BR.  If and only if they take Soriano and pay a huge chunk, you can't saddle this organization with that size of a contract for Carl Crawford.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: craig on November 10, 2011, 01:19:04 pm
Craig - if it is within the budget, there is seldom any reason to run something past the boss.

But although I have not seen any firm numbers, it is my understanding that the Cubs spent somewhat less than 10 million dollars last year on signing domestic and international prospects.  My guess is that 50 million dollars for one player would exceed whatever increase Ricketts has put into this year's budget.

Dave, if Theo thinks Crespedes is worth $50 mill, it wouldn't be to play as a prospect for Peoria.  If a guy is worth $50 million at age 26 (if his listing is actually accurate), it's to play in the majors.  Theo's big-league budget should have room for a $50 player on it.  With Silva, Grabow, Pena, and Aram all coming off, Theo has some discretionary spending money.  No idea whether he thinks Crespedes is a good investment, and he may want to spread it around rather than focus on one or two more expensive guys.  But if Crespedes is the guy Hoyer targets and he costs only $50 (over multiple year), Hoyer will be able to fit that in without needing to ask Ricketts to inflate the budget.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: shasson on November 10, 2011, 01:27:57 pm
Oneri Fleita is Cuban-American, right? And would he be point person for this type of international signing, or because this guy would be on the MLB roster is this a Hoyer-led situation? No idea if Fleita's ties to Cuba would have an impact good, bad or indiffierent.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 10, 2011, 03:27:22 pm
Craig - all we have to go on now is pure rumor, but from what I have been reading, he is expected to bet a signing bonus of about 30 million or more, in addition to whatever salary he would get.  I would like to think that he could immediately move into the starting rotation, like Fukudome did.  Have there been many Cuban refugees that were able to do that without any minor league experience at all.  I have no idea, but none come immediately to mind.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 10, 2011, 05:36:23 pm
Sometimes it is interesting just to compare the spirit/tone/mindset of different posts, not so much the exact statements of fact in them, but just to look at the different beliefs implicit in them.

I have no idea whether Cespedes is a potential superstar or a huge waste of money, but I do trust the Theocracy to make a good decision either way.

Theo, Jed, Justin and the rest of the front office will make a state-of-the-art evaluation of Cespedes and tell Ricketts what they think he's worth....  they will spend the time and resources to do the evaluation properly.

include me in the group that has faith in Cub leaders to make a smart, well-informed decision.

This article contends smart guys like Theo/Jed are good for baseball.
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/11/5/2538326/the-smartest-guys-in-the-room

I think my favorite is whomever Epstein & Hoyer pick....

Cubsin seems to be deep in Theo worship, even deeper that Ben, and Ron is willing to deffer to the wisdom of the Theocracy, pretty much whatever the decision might be.

Others..... have started to lay down some markers, on things that Epstein really should not do, and indicating the would not defer to his judgement on those issues, but instead blast him over them.


Crawford has always been very overrated, I'd have no interest unless the Red Sox took Soriano and paid a lot of the money from 2015-2017.

Completely agree with BR.  If and only if they take Soriano and pay a huge chunk, you can't saddle this organization with that size of a contract for Carl Crawford.

It will be interesting to watch the attitude toward the Theocracy evolve.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Cubsin on November 10, 2011, 05:53:33 pm
Jes, I'm not into "Theo worship" as you suggest. Over time, the best organizations are right perhaps 60% of the time, and the worst are right 50% of the time.

But I do think that Theo and his team are bright, hard-working and statistically savvy consensus builders who are much better at evaluating talent than me, you or most of the other management teams in baseball.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 10, 2011, 06:08:46 pm
Cubsin, it would be interesting to pick the over/under on when you will change that opinion.

I am hoping that it never does.... But I would bet that it does before the end of the 2012 season.

Oh, and the worst run organizations are not right anything CLOSE to 50% of the time.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: StrikeZone on November 10, 2011, 10:34:28 pm
Craig - all we have to go on now is pure rumor, but from what I have been reading, he is expected to bet a signing bonus of about 30 million or more, in addition to whatever salary he would get.  I would like to think that he could immediately move into the starting rotation, like Fukudome did.  Have there been many Cuban refugees that were able to do that without any minor league experience at all.  I have no idea, but none come immediately to mind.

Actually, the rumors on Yoenis Cespedes' contract demands have him requesting Aroldis Chapman money, which was about $30 million over six years, with half of that being his signing bonus, spread over however long it was.

I haven't seen anyone believe that he is going to get that much.

I have seen a couple of articles/tweets/TV mentions that have suggested that he might start the year in AAA and move quickly to the Majors unless he signs with a team that is especially thin in the outfield.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 10, 2011, 11:01:47 pm
That answers the question, then.  If the cost of signing is 5 million per year, I doubt that they would have to clear it with Ricketts.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Deeg on November 10, 2011, 11:24:56 pm
Another interesting CF (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-japanese-center-fielder-added-to-free-agent-pool-20111110,0,1293446.story) just entered the market.

I actually saw Aoki play at Meiji Jingu Stadium with Tuffy a couple of years ago.  He's very much as advertised - a terrific defensive CF with great speed and decent LH power who draws a few walks.  He had an off year this year - ironic, as the normally awful Swallows won the Japanese title - but I don't know if there were injury issues.  I'm sure Tuffy would know.  He's 29, and meets Theo's metric for guys in their prime, though there's always concern about how well Japanese hitters make the transition.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: StrikeZone on November 10, 2011, 11:31:01 pm
Aoki would be an interesting sign but the Chicago media would go ballistic if the Cubs actually did acquire him.

Not that the Theocracy would give a damn about that.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 11, 2011, 01:10:38 am
Would the Chicago media be for it or against it?
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 11, 2011, 11:51:28 am
From a column on the best prospects in the minors.....

Jedd Gyorko, 3B, San Diego Padres

Adding Gyorko to a system that already featured James Darnell and Chase Headley seemed a bit like overkill when the Padres drafted him with their second-round pick last year, but Gyorko more than lived up to his billing.

This year he's hit .333 with 47 doubles, 25 home runs and 114 RBI. He's showed a solid eye at the plate and decent defensive ability. Considering he offers more pop than either Darnell or Headley, the third-base job could be his long-term.


This would indicate Headly might well be available from San Diego, but San Diego would almost certainly want young prospects for Headly, and the Cubs also need young prospects.  Until the Cubs get something close to a decent nucleus in place, I would prefer that they collect young talent instead of send any of it out.  If the Cubs were close, Headly would likely be a great move, because he should just be coming into his prime, and still contribute at a high level for several years, but the Cubs are NOT close.  I still believe they are at least two years away, whether they take a total rebuild approach or not, and trading for a player's prime years during seasons when the team is unlikely to amount to squat does not seem advisable.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 11, 2011, 12:06:07 pm
Though many of us had speculated that Florida would be looking to trade Logan Morrison, that may not be the case.  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/935297-miami-marlins-jose-reyes-almost-done-deal-brass-impressed-with-cespedes

But if the Marlins were to trade for Gonzalez, it probably will not include outfielder Logan Morrison as the team has labeled him "off-limits" at least for all deals except for the Rays James Shields.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: StrikeZone on November 11, 2011, 05:19:55 pm
Would the Chicago media be for it or against it?

Against it due to their hatred of Kosuke Fukudome.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Clarkaddison on November 11, 2011, 07:27:00 pm
I wonder where Fukudome will play next year. 

I'm guessing Japan.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: brjones on November 14, 2011, 02:23:42 pm
List of potential non-tenders:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/non-tender-candidates.html

Not many on there are exciting.  I guess Pelfrey or Saunders could be interesting as a back end starter option.  Ian Stewart is probably still young enough to develop into a useful third baseman.  And James Loney might still have some upside away from Dodger Stadium.  But other than those guys, I don't see many on that list who I'd have any interest at all in.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 14, 2011, 03:14:39 pm
I'm not excited about anyone, but I think that either pagan or Torres would make decent last-man people on the 25 man roster.  torres especially, as an all around defensive shortstop whiz that had a bad year following some decent ones.  Both have speed and both take a few walks.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: JeffH on November 14, 2011, 03:51:30 pm
Dave, you're thinking of Andres Blanco.  Andres Torres is an outfielder.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: CurtOne on November 14, 2011, 04:56:38 pm
Andres Torres is a waiter at El Toro Restaurant in Omaha.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on November 14, 2011, 07:16:10 pm
You are right.  Don't tell Curt I finally made a mistake.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: brjones on November 15, 2011, 09:46:52 am
Tweet from Rosenthal:

Quote
One thing #Mets have: Depth/duplication among Davis, Murphy, Duda. Won't trade Davis. But maybe one of other two. #MLB

I don't know much about Duda, but his numbers look good (.292/.370/.482 in 301 AB in 2011).  Could be a nice option at first base.


And more Mets, from MLB Trade Rumors:


Quote
Mets executives tell Sherman closer is the only position at which the team is willing to exceed a one-year contract, and Sherman feels they may top out at two years with an option.  The Mets consider themselves two years away from contention, writes Sherman, so Alderson intends to avoid big multiyear commitments.   

So is there a match?  Something built around Marmol for Duda?  Gives the Mets the reasonably priced closer they want for a couple years, and gives the Cubs a potential everyday first baseman who doesn't really have a place to play with the Mets.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on November 15, 2011, 11:04:12 pm
Duda's minor league performance looks as if he is the kind the Theocracy would like.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: CurtOne on December 05, 2011, 10:15:22 pm
With Reyes going to the Marlins and saying they want to move Hanley to 3rd, the Cubs should inquire about Matt Dominguez.   Maybe involve Z?
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Cactus on December 06, 2011, 11:54:23 am
Quote
Cubs president Theo Epstein attempted to deflect speculation about his team's interest in Pujols by noting that Lozano also represents free agent pitcher Rodrigo Lopez, another Cubs target. However, the Post-Dispatch confirmed early this morning that the Cubs submitted a bid for their rival's longtime offensive centerpiece.

Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/pujols-talks-gaining-momentum/article_0425278d-e5ee-506c-8c85-280166eb5c4c.html#ixzz1fmJB6Oyz (http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/pujols-talks-gaining-momentum/article_0425278d-e5ee-506c-8c85-280166eb5c4c.html#ixzz1fmJB6Oyz)
There aren't any more details in the story.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: CurtOne on December 06, 2011, 12:39:02 pm
I hear it involves exclusive use of the Jumbotron for his Nintendo and his own rail car for weekend travel.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Cactus on December 07, 2011, 05:29:37 pm
TheCCO ChicagoCubsOnline
(@KenDavidoff) A friend of Prince Fielder's says the free-agent slugger is very interested in the #Cubs.
6 minutes ago
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Deeg on December 07, 2011, 05:59:49 pm
If the Cubs are in stealth mode on Fielder, they're doing a damn good job of it.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Cubsin on December 07, 2011, 06:03:21 pm
Prince is the only major free agent that appeals to me. I don't care about the dollars per year, but I'd be very reluctant to offer him more than four or five years. I wouldn't even object to adding a limited no-trade clause and/or additional option years.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Dihard on December 07, 2011, 07:38:32 pm
If we're all pretty convinced we're gonna suck for at least the next 2 years, why would we want to sign a big free agent now?  Especially Pujols doesn't make sense to me.  His best two years are likely to be 2 we aren't contenders anyway, so why pay all that money for someone who will be declining by the time we're relevant. 

I know we have a hole at first, so it makes Fielder and Pujols appealing, but I'd rather get some lesser pieces in place, and save the big signings for next winter or the one after.  (Admittedly, I haven't looked at who projects to become available then.)
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: JeffH on December 07, 2011, 07:42:39 pm
I want a dominant veteran hitter in the lineup so we can bring up kids without expecting them to hit a ton from the moment they come up.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Deeg on December 07, 2011, 07:58:28 pm
Fielder is 27 and could be in his prime for all of a 6-year deal.  You're going to need a 1B and lefty power at some point if you hope to be a contender, so I'd sure as hell at least kick the tires.  Pujols, I wouldn't touch.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Playtwo on December 07, 2011, 08:00:18 pm
I have a feeling that the Cubs will end up with Fielder.  For better or worse.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on December 07, 2011, 08:03:13 pm
I would love to see them get Fielder for a 5 or 6 year contract.  But I doubt that they will.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: brjones on December 07, 2011, 08:16:59 pm
Olney on Twitter:

Quote
MILW playing it right in the way they're negotiating with Fielder, but Cubs could grab this thing by the throat with Ryan Howard-type offer.

Is he talking a Howard-type deal in years and value?  Because if he is, sign me up...5/$125 for Fielder would be a steal.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on December 07, 2011, 08:27:42 pm
If we're all pretty convinced we're gonna suck for at least the next 2 years, why would we want to sign a big free agent now?  Especially Pujols doesn't make sense to me.  His best two years are likely to be 2 we aren't contenders anyway, so why pay all that money for someone who will be declining by the time we're relevant. 

I am one of those who believes it will take two years before the team has a chance of being restructured to such a degree that it is likely to be strongly contending on a regular basis and agree entirely with you about signing Pujols.

Others here seemingly believe that the Cubs can seriously contend in 2012 and should try to do so, AND that they can do that without in any way compromising the future.  They are the ones wanting the Cubs to go deep in the FA market and trade for current impact players (not sure what could be traded of them, but that is a different issue).  I don't happen to agree with that belief.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: CurtOne on December 07, 2011, 08:36:22 pm
If we're all pretty convinced we're gonna suck for at least the next 2 years, why would we want to sign a big free agent now?  Especially Pujols doesn't make sense to me.  His best two years are likely to be 2 we aren't contenders anyway, so why pay all that money for someone who will be declining by the time we're relevant. 

I know we have a hole at first, so it makes Fielder and Pujols appealing, but I'd rather get some lesser pieces in place, and save the big signings for next winter or the one after.  (Admittedly, I haven't looked at who projects to become available then.)

Di, because you need players two years from now to stop sucking and all of them won't come from your system.  One or two good players this year, another one or two next, start mixing in the kids and a couple of nice trades and you're competitive.  I also get the feeling that they wouldn't be opposed to fielding a team that could challenge already next year as long as it didn't damage their long term goal of building the farm.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Cactus on December 07, 2011, 08:42:29 pm
Quote from: Dave Van Dyck
At least two other teams have come close to the St. Louis bid, believed to be 10 years and at least $200 million, according to multiple sources at baseball's winter meetings. The other two teams have not been identified, although the Cubs always seem to wind up in the speculation, whether it is warranted or not.
The Yankees are laying in the weeds waiting to find out what it is going to cost them.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Deeg on December 07, 2011, 08:51:30 pm
The Yankees are laying in the weeds waiting to find out what it is going to cost them.

No.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on December 07, 2011, 08:59:43 pm
I have no problem with 10 year/200 million.


35
35
30
30
20
15
15
10
5
5
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: StrikeZone on December 07, 2011, 10:47:13 pm
If we're all pretty convinced we're gonna suck for at least the next 2 years, why would we want to sign a big free agent now?  Especially Pujols doesn't make sense to me.  His best two years are likely to be 2 we aren't contenders anyway, so why pay all that money for someone who will be declining by the time we're relevant. 

I know we have a hole at first, so it makes Fielder and Pujols appealing, but I'd rather get some lesser pieces in place, and save the big signings for next winter or the one after.  (Admittedly, I haven't looked at who projects to become available then.)

I'm not convinced that the Cubs will suck in 2012.

Passing on free agents at a position of need because someone might become available down the road isn't a solid strategy, especially if "down the road" is two years away.

Said player might re-sign with his current team, get traded to another team before he becomes a free agent and the re-sign with them or get injured and never recover before getting to free agency.

Right now, there are two impact players at first base, where the Cubs have a black hole with no one on the horizon in the minors.  Those players are/were key pieces on two of the Cubs division rivals.

Piecemeal, patchwork, band-aid, whatever you want to call it, is mid-1990s Andy MacPhail era Cubs management and it's no way to run a major market baseball team.

The Cubs need to win ten more games to become a .500 club next year.  They have money coming off the books now and again after next year.  They should make moves now in order to be in a better position next offseason.

Punting the next two years is lunacy, especially considering that they would be wasting two more cheap years of Starlin Castro and other key young players.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Ron on December 07, 2011, 10:47:24 pm
There were rumors that the Cubs were offering Pujols fewer years but close to equal money to one or more of the 10 year offers.  I have wondered if they were contemplating a shorter term version of DaveP's suggestion - either to Pujols or Fielder.


If you offer a 6 year deal at $35 million that equals $210 million, and if Pujols/Fielder is still a strong player they can add to the total after those six years with a new contract.  That's the sort of approach to one of those guys that would make sense.  I think it's highly possible that Pujols will have at least four more terrific years, and it's not inconceivable that he would have 5 or 6.  With Fielder (who is, in spite of his name, a weaker defensive player), it's even more likely that he'll have that many really good years, offensively at least.


I admit that I have found myself secretly hoping that something like that would happen.  But I don't expect that it will.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on December 07, 2011, 10:54:31 pm
Even a 6 year deal at $35 a year for Pujols would have a team regretting that deal for the last two years of the contract, and since the Cubs are not going anywhere for what would be the first two years of the contract, that essentially would have the Cubs paying $210M for two years of Pujols when his performance would have some chance of really helping.

That is WAY overpaying.

Other than staying in the game to run up the cost for the Cards, the Cubs need to let him go.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: davep on December 07, 2011, 10:55:40 pm
I don't think they should sign Pujols unless he promises to wear a Cubs hat when he is put into the Hall of Fame.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: brjones on December 08, 2011, 07:12:42 am
Yu Darvish will be posted today.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Dave23 on December 08, 2011, 07:44:55 am
Rangers refusing to give up Feldman in a Garza deal?

Really?!
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Pistol on December 08, 2011, 11:05:14 am
Soriano?

Orioles Expected To Announce Trade Today By Tim Dierkes [December 8, 2011 at 5:00am CST] The Orioles are "real close" to a trade that is expected to be announced today, tweets Roch Kubatko of MASNSports.com. Originally published on December 8th at 9:44am
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Cactus on December 09, 2011, 07:56:06 am
Quote from: St. Paul Pioneer Press
If the Twins can't re-sign Cuddyer, they're interested in the Chicago Cubs' fourth outfielder, free agent Reed Johnson, a right-handed hitter who batted .309 with five homers and 28 runs batted in in 111 games last season. Johnson, who turned 35 on Thursday, is a nine-year major league veteran.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Ron on December 09, 2011, 08:21:44 am


I'll be disappointed if the Cubs don't bring Reed Johnson back.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Dave23 on December 09, 2011, 09:41:28 am
me too...
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Jes Beard on December 09, 2011, 12:08:44 pm
I like Reed Johnson.

I like to watch him play.

But what role would he play on the 2012 Cubs?  And will he provide more value in that role than some other player?

If he's still available after the Theocracy has assembled the roster it plans to enter 2012 with, and he has a role on that roster, I certainly hope he is still available and that they sign him to fill it, but on a team when the highest paid player is the one who really should have one of the reserve OFer roles, that doesn't leave much for Johnson.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Cactus on December 10, 2011, 12:40:03 pm
Jon Heyman says the Astros may be interested in Ryan Theriot if the Cards non-tender him. 

Heyman is getting like Peter Gammon was when he was still with ESPN - throw a lot of s--t at the wall and see how much sticks.
Title: Re: Hot Stove 2011
Post by: Clarkaddison on December 10, 2011, 01:05:47 pm
If Theriot ends up in Houston, will he still be on the right side of the rivalry?