Author Topic: Around Baseball 2/16/11 - 5/9/13  (Read 147798 times)

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5205 on: December 10, 2012, 10:07:16 am »
If the Angels made the same trade, then I could agree with what Rosenthal is saying.  Yeah, it would be a lot to give up...but if the Angels hypothetically traded away a Myers-like prospect to upgrade their fifth spot to James Shields, that might move them from the 89-90 win range to the 93-95 win range.  That's a big deal.

But the Royals just moved from 75ish wins to 80ish wins.  It's not worth the trade off...especially when there's a good chance that benching Francoeur, playing Myers, promoting Odorizzi, and signing someone in the Sanchez/Lohse/Dempster/Jackson category probably helps them almost as much.

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5206 on: December 10, 2012, 10:08:43 am »
Agree with br on this one.

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5207 on: December 10, 2012, 10:28:02 am »
Not really sure if I disagree with br either. 

I don't know.  If I was a Royals fan and had to go through two straight seasons where Luke Hochever and Bruce Chen were my best starting pitchers and just seeing how slowly a lot of their top prospects have developed (Hosmer, Moustakas, Lamb, Montgomery, Duffy, etc.), it might have just been time to go ahead and the bite the bullet and try to get a proven player or two in and at least try to get some sort of spark going.   For a Royals fan and their organization, getting to 85 wins probably would be a big deal, and even with that trade, it's not like they're still hurting for building block young players.

It's probably fair to say the Royals rebuilding plan has gone a lot more slowly than they probably expected, considering they've had the best farm system in the league the last few years.  I think there probably does come a point where you just can't keep losing 90 games a year and letting the service time on your young players get used up on 90 loss seasons.  It's just a pretty lousy situation the Royals have been in for a long time, so I guess I'm pretty sympathetic to both sides of this argument.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 10:29:44 am by JR »

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5208 on: December 10, 2012, 10:42:51 am »
It's just a pretty lousy situation the Royals have been in for a long time

The Royals are in Kansas City.

They have a small fan base, providing low revenue, and any time they win, it means that fans in much larger cities do not.

The Royals fans are lucky to have a team at all.

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5209 on: December 10, 2012, 10:56:27 am »
Yeah, but you can "bite the bullet" without giving up one of the top prospects in baseball for two years of a fringe ace.

Just look at how much money they would've had to spend if they'd built their rotation differently.  They took on $12 million in the Santana deal.  They spent $25 million over 3 years on Guthrie.  They will be paying $21 million over the next two years for Shields and $7.6 million for Davis (both good investments...but still money).  And they will be paying Hochevar about $4.5 million in arbitration when they could have just non-tendered him. 

That's a total of about $70 million committed over the next 3 years.  They have only one impact guy to show for it, and they're better off without 1-2 of those guys (Hochevar; maybe Santana).  For that money, it seems like they could've gone to the free agent market, gotten two good starters in the Jackson/Lohse/Dempster class, and then filled in around them with reclamation projects/guys who fall through the cracks/minor trades.  Sure, they wouldn't have the ace at the top.  But they could've probably found a much stronger back four.

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5210 on: December 10, 2012, 11:12:11 am »
Yeah, but you can "bite the bullet" without giving up one of the top prospects in baseball for two years of a fringe ace.

Just look at how much money they would've had to spend if they'd built their rotation differently.  They took on $12 million in the Santana deal.  They spent $25 million over 3 years on Guthrie.  They will be paying $21 million over the next two years for Shields and $7.6 million for Davis (both good investments...but still money).  And they will be paying Hochevar about $4.5 million in arbitration when they could have just non-tendered him. 

That's a total of about $70 million committed over the next 3 years.  They have only one impact guy to show for it, and they're better off without 1-2 of those guys (Hochevar; maybe Santana).  For that money, it seems like they could've gone to the free agent market, gotten two good starters in the Jackson/Lohse/Dempster class, and then filled in around them with reclamation projects/guys who fall through the cracks/minor trades.  Sure, they wouldn't have the ace at the top.  But they could've probably found a much stronger back four.

Can't really disagree with any of that either.  There's definitely a lot of poorly spent dollars on that pitching staff that could have been allocated a lot better.

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5211 on: December 10, 2012, 11:14:43 am »
Really, the Royals probably should have been bidding with the Cubs on guys like Scott Baker and Scott Feldman.  We're certainly not much worse off with Baker/Feldman than the Royals are with Santana/Guthrie, and we're paying our guys a whole lot less.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 11:16:35 am by JR »

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5212 on: December 10, 2012, 11:31:12 am »
Baseball America asked some scouts and front office people what they thought about the trade.

The Royals and Rays hooked up for a blockbuster trade that landed workhorse righthander James Shields in Kansas City and reigning Minor League Player of the Year Wil Myers in Tampa Bay. Triple-A pitching prospects Jake Odorizzi, a righty, and Mike Montgomery, a lefty, also join the Rays organization, as does Rookie-ball third baseman Patrick Leonard. In addition to Shields, the Rays also acquired righthander Wade Davis and a player to be named or cash.

When the news broke of the blockbuster trade, the reaction almost broke Twitter.

Fans, particularly of the Royals, took to their phones and keyboards to register their displeasure, and many baseball analysts rushed to outdo each other in piling on to general manager Dayton Moore and to praise his Rays counterpart, Andrew Friedman.

Inside the game, the response is much more measured. In checking with six pro scouts, none saw the trade as one-sided, and all were convinced that the chorus of criticism of the Royals for making the deal is misplaced.

An AL Pro Scout: "I've gotta say—I think it's a good trade for both teams.  And I really understand and like it for Kansas City. At some point, they have to try to win. They've done a great job adding young talent to their big league club but have just come up a bit short with pitchers. It's not an easy thing to do. They've acquired a present top-of-the-rotation veteran in Shields and a present fourth/fifth starter in Davis. These two guys will step right in and impact their rotation. I also like the fact that they gave up Mike Montgomery instead of (Yordano) Ventura. I have Ventura ahead of Montgomery and Odorizzi.

Tampa gets a great prospect in Myers but he isn't a sure bet yet. I think he's going to be a very good major league right fielder but still has some polishing off to do before he gets there. I like Odorizzi, but I don't think his ceiling is higher than that of Davis. And Davis is on a very good contract. Montgomery is a bit of a wild card but has to get back to where he was and he's never really been able to throw a breaking ball.

In the end, I think Tampa Bay did well in the players they got, but I think trading away Shields and the one guy (Davis) who had the best chance to help replace Shields' innings not already in the rotation really sets them back for 2013 with questions remaining for 2014 on. They're going to end up relying a lot on (Chris) Archer and Odorizzi as youngsters in the AL East the next few years. And will they be able to extend Price? So I understand it from both sides, but I think it's fair. And I really like it for Kansas City.

Another AL Pro Scout: "Kansas City's team is ready to roll. They just needed an ace and some starters. With Shields I think they can win the AL Central. Their everyday lineup is outstanding.

Wil Myers has chance to be a superstar-type player, a center fielder or right fielder hitting .300 with 25-plus home runs. Odorizzi is a fourth starter. Montgomery has some mechanical issues that need to be fixed but he will show you three potential plus pitches at any given time, and Leonard has big sock in his bat and profiles as a first base/third baseman.

The biggest thing is Dayton Moore needs to get over 500 this year to keep job. This deal may have helped him keep his job."

An AL Front-Office Executive: "I don't like the trade for KC, but I think the general reaction that this is the 'worst trade ever' is hyperbolic nonsense. The Royals are going to be better in 2013 with this trade, no doubt. But to judge the deal right now is silly. If the Royals make the playoffs and end nearly three decades of misery, it's worth it. If the prospects don't work out, then it's a good trade for KC. If the Royals win 81 games each of the next two years and Myers turns into an All-Star then it's a bad trade. All of those are within a realistic realm of possibility. To judge the deal right now with some sort of absolutism to an extreme is to simply exert a lot of energy to be part of the maddening crowd."

Another AL Front Office Executive: "It's a bold, fascinating baseball trade with layers of talent for both sides. Shields is an ace and his style, along with his work ethic permeates a clubhouse positively. Wade Davis is vastly underrated and should be able to start successfully going forward.

Wil Myers is a monster. Jake Odorizzi is an athletic, talented pitcher that is held in the same regard that Wade Davis was as a prospect four years ago. Montgomery has a huge arm with wobbly command that should transition to the bullpen reminiscent of when Matt Thornton got traded from Seattle to Chicago. Patrick Leonard has big power and profiles at third base or right field.

It's a creative transaction on many levels. Both sides accomplished what they wanted to achieve. Shields and Myers are the headliners of the deal, although the many layers and secondary pieces of this transaction have a strong percentage chance to impact as well. It's a fascinating, talent for talent, pure baseball trade."

Another AL Front-Office Executive: "I like it a lot for Kansas City. Here's the premise for why I think it was important for them. Wil Myers is not a major league ready impact bat, and might take a couple years of struggles burning into his major league service time, while Kansas City continues to toil around .500 and maybe Hosmer and Moose come into their own. Then they play in that mid-rotation market for guys like (Jeremy) Guthrie, (Ervin) Santana and even Odorizzi and then (Bruce) Chen/ (Jonathan) Sanchez types on the back-end with little or no chance of taking them to the next level.

For the people saying this is a desperate move on their part, what do they think Kansas City's window is? I think it's now, with a legit front-line horse like Shields and an absolutely stacked pen. I think they maximized Myers' value.

We've seen what the market is for frontline starting pitchers (Zack Greinke, Matt Cain, Cole Hamels, Cliff Lee) and they can't play in that market. They trade a top prospect who isn't a sure thing even if you love him, and some replaceable pieces beyond that for no doubt above-average major league pieces in Shields and Davis.

The next two years are important, but my point is if they didn't make this trade they aren't winning with Guthrie and Santana leading the rotation, and they probably aren't winning next year either. Are they just supposed to sit around and wait a couple more years of losing and mediocrity?"

And one more AL Pro Scout: "I think it's a really good trade from Kansas City's standpoint. You have two proven guys that aren't making a lot of money. Now they don't have to overpay for Anibal Sanchez. I'd do that trade in a heartbeat. (The Royals) have to win. Who cares if the Omaha Storm Chasers are good for the next couple of years? They have to win at the varsity level at some point, don't they? I think it's a great trade for the Royals. Could it come back to bite you? Yeah, but if they don't win on TV, it doesn't matter. It's a winnable division.

"I think Montgomery will be really good with the (Rays). He'll have some growing pains, but he'll be really good maybe halfway through this year. I think Montgomery is the wild card that makes the trade interesting. I don't know if they gave up on Montgomery, but he's interesting. If he can become what he's supposed to become, that's what makes it really good. You'll see if it was the kid or the organization."

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5213 on: December 10, 2012, 12:05:12 pm »
Here's the thing about arguing the Royals could have spent their pitching dollars more efficiently: top tier FA pitchers can get lots of money from CONTENDERS, not just pretenders. Good teams are going to be interested in Sanchez. The amount that the Royals would have to overpay to get him is likely stupid high. It may not even be possible. I don't think it's reasonable to assume they could have just signed Sanchez instead of Guthrie/Santana. If it were that easy, I think even Dayton Moore would have gotten that part right.

Again, I'm not a fan of the trade, but I understand it, and I've seen much worse.

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5214 on: December 10, 2012, 01:00:14 pm »
Looking at the Royals' rosters for the last 12 years or so, they've had some excellent players, just not at the same time or at the right time.

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5215 on: December 10, 2012, 01:16:53 pm »
You know, everyone talks about rebuilding through the farm system, which is what we're in the process of trying to do right now and what we tried to do under Hendry, without a great deal of success.

For the Royals, they've tried building around Mike Moustakas, Eric Hosmer, Alex Gordon, Billy Butler, Alcides Escobar, Salvador Perez, Danny Duffy, Aaron Crow, John Lamb, Mike Montgomery, etc.  There are some good players in there, and some players who have been pretty slow to develop, particularly the pitchers who have dealt with injuries and ineffectiveness.  I'm sure most people with the Royals thought by this point that they'd be closer to contending and still not losing 90 games a year when a lot of those guys finally reached the majors.

Building through the farm isn't always the easiest thing, and it's not always easy to know when you need to start being Nowacrat and when to keep developing.  Too bad for the Cubs, it's probably going to be a while before we get that much young talent close to the majors and we have to start making difficult decisions like that. 

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5216 on: December 10, 2012, 01:43:42 pm »
Quote
Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN

Great observation I heard today about Rays: Their owner, president and GM all smart guys who share the same vision about operational plan.

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN

In most organizations, there is a disconnect between ownership/GM or president/GM or owner/president, and plans are jumbled. Not w/ Rays.

Hopefully the Cubs are also one of those rare organizations where Ownership, President, and GM are all on the same page and plans aren't going be jumbled. 

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5217 on: December 10, 2012, 02:13:04 pm »
Is the Rays plan is to shoot themselves in the foot perpetually by trying to make baseball work in a city that doesn't care about it? /snark

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5218 on: December 10, 2012, 02:34:36 pm »
What would the people of Miami give to have the Rays' franchise there?

Can't contract the Marlins...the owners have already done that, but if you could, move the Rays to Miami.  What American city deserves a franchise?  Las Vegas?  Sacramento?  Brooklyn?  Charlotte?  New Orleans?  San Antonio?  Oklahoma City? 


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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5219 on: December 10, 2012, 02:49:30 pm »
You forgot Nashville, CurtOne.