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Author Topic: Around Baseball 2/16/11 - 5/9/13  (Read 147788 times)

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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5370 on: January 08, 2013, 11:44:20 am »
LaRoche back to the Nationals for two years.
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5371 on: January 08, 2013, 01:24:06 pm »
Quote from: Jes Beard on January 07, 2013, 01:41:02 pm
If Bonds had retired before he started using PEDs, he still would have had 2 MVPs and a HOF career.  You might have a similar argument for Clemens.  You can't make the same case for Sosa or McGwire (assuming that they were both using and that Sosa started using right before his 98 season).

I can see someone opposed to allowing into the HOF those who had great performances after taking PEDs and still supporting Clemens and Bonds.  I can't see someone very bothered by PEDs and possibly thinking performance enhanced seasons should be discounted or ignored supporting McGwuire or Sosa.
now exactly, when did bonds start using? i have not see or heard anywhere when he started using.
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5372 on: January 08, 2013, 05:00:28 pm »
Quote from: jacey1 on January 08, 2013, 01:24:06 pm
now exactly, when did bonds start using? i have not see or heard anywhere when he started using.


You need to read more.  Bonds has been widely reported to have started juicing either in or right after the 1999 season, when he was upset at all of the attention Sosa and McGwire got in 98.  His performance had had already been in a slow plateau/decline from his peak, OPS+ of 204 and 206 at age 27 and 28, and he was already a 3 time MVP with the HOF a certainty.

Then in 2000, at age 35 his performance inexplicably surged back up and for the next four years he did better than he ever had before. 
Barry Bonds Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com
Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Barry Bonds. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Base...
baseball-reference.com


It not only has been reported many places that he started juicing shortly after the 1998 season because he was upset by players he considered lesser talents hitting 60+ HR and becoming the center of attention, and that he started using as a result, if you just look at his stats it is pretty clear SOMETHING happened to give his performance that surge.
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5373 on: January 09, 2013, 01:07:49 pm »
No one gets elected to the Hall of Fame.  Biggio leads at 68%.

Bonds and Clemens finish at 36% and 37%, respectively.  Ridiculous, IMO. 

Maybe the most ridiculous percentage is one that won't be talked about, though.  Kenny Lofton gets 3% and falls off after one ballot.  A lot of his value is tied up in defense, baserunning, and non-traditional offensive numbers (OBP; 2B power), but he at least deserved 15 years of scrutiny.
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5374 on: January 09, 2013, 01:20:11 pm »
How in the world does Craig Biggio with 3,000 hits not get in on the first ballot?  He's never been mentioned even once with PED's.  That's nuts.

And an absolute damn shame about Lofton.  He definitely got Whitakered.  If he had played in a bigger market for most of his career instead of playing for Cleveland during his prime and bouncing around from team to team in the last half of his career, he probably would have been voted in eventually.  A great player whom I hope the Veteran's Committee will appreciate eventually.

Bernie Williams probably also deserved to have his candidacy discussed for 15 years.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 01:24:32 pm by JR »
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5375 on: January 09, 2013, 01:29:46 pm »
They're really going to need to change something about the voting process, because I don't see how anyone but very obvious guys go in any time soon.  I mean, Maddux and probably Glavine will go in next year.  But with about 20 other guys who have a legitimate argument, the rest of the vote is going to be really split.
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5376 on: January 09, 2013, 01:45:18 pm »
Jon Heyman *really* likes Jack Morris. 
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5377 on: January 09, 2013, 01:47:24 pm »
It appears the steroid concerns caused some voters to essentially decide to vote for no one until some consensus develops regarding standards for voting, or for how to deal with the steroid issue.  Biggio seemed like a very easy choice, and I agree that Lofton should have at the worst been considered borderline.

Perhaps one change which should be made is to add another category for voters -- yes, no, let's look again.
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5378 on: January 09, 2013, 01:47:45 pm »
I don't get how Raines and, to some degree, Trammell miss out especially in a year when voters were insisting on being stubborn idiots about the "steroid era" guys. 
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5379 on: January 09, 2013, 01:48:33 pm »
Quote from: Rob Neyer
Welcome to the modern Hall of Fame, everyone! Brought to you by drug users and baseball writers!

Not sure which of those two groups is the bigger group of scumbags.
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5380 on: January 09, 2013, 01:53:10 pm »

Quote
I don't get how Raines and, to some degree, Trammell miss out especially in a year when voters were insisting on being stubborn idiots about the "steroid era" guys.

Because that same group of people made this a referendum on "new-fangled" stats, and sabermetrically-inclined people are the ones who like Raines and Trammell the most.

Ken Rosenthal compared people who argue against Jack Morris to the tea party, and used the terms  "over the top", "crusade", and "ridiculous" to explain their arguments.  Sounds like a guy who can't refute their arguments, so he's resorting to insults.
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5381 on: January 09, 2013, 02:11:33 pm »

Ballots Cast: 569    Needed for Election: 427

VOTES   PLAYER                PERCENTAGE
388       Craig Biggio          68.20%
385       Jack Morris           67.70%
339       Jeff Bagwell          59.60%
329       Mike Piazza           57.80%
297       Tim Raines           52.20%
272       Lee Smith             47.80%
221       Curt Schilling        38.80%
214       Roger Clemens      37.60%
206       Barry Bonds         36.20%
204       Edgar Martinez      35.90%
191       Alan Trammell      33.60%
123       Larry Walker        21.60%
118       Fred McGriff         20.70%
106       Dale Murphy        18.60%
96         Mark McGwire      16.90%
75         Don Mattingly      13.20%
71         Sammy Sosa       12.50%
50         Rafael Palmeiro      8.80%
19         Bernie Williams      3.30%
18         Kenny Lofton         3.20%
16         Sandy Alomar Jr.    2.80%
6           Julio Franco           1.10%
5           David Wells           0.90%
4           Steve Finley          0.70%
2           Shawn Green        0.40%
1           Aaron Sele            0.20%
0           Jeff Cirillo             0.00%
0           Royce Clayton       0.00%
0           Jeff Conine           0.00%
0           Roberto Hernandez0.00%
0           Ryan Klesko         0.00%
0           Jose Mesa            0.00%
0           Reggie Sanders     0.00%
0           Mike Stanton        0.00%
0           Todd Walker        0.00%
0           Rondell White       0.00%
0           Woody Williams   0.00%
         
*Candidates receiving less than 5% of the vote on
all ballots cast are removed from future BBWAA
consideration; Dale Murphy received 18.6% of the
vote in his 15th and final year of BBWAA eligibility.
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5382 on: January 09, 2013, 02:14:25 pm »
Seems like there have been a lot of really good players who fell off the ballot pretty quickly the last few years who deserved much longer looks.  Robin Ventura, Kevin Brown, and Javy Lopez are a few guys who I think at least should have had their careers examined for much longer than one year.  Kenny Lofton is a very extreme oversight IMHO.  I read an article about Bernie Williams today that at least made me think he probably should have stayed on the ballot for a while longer.  And I think br's talked about John Olerud before and an overlooked guy.

I mean if Jim Rice is a Hall of Famer and Jack Morris is up to 67%, it seems like some of these players should have gotten longer looks.
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5383 on: January 09, 2013, 02:16:53 pm »
Pretty much, if you're going to have a Hall of Very Good, who's in it?

Lou Whitaker, obviously.  It seems like Ted Simmons gets brought up a whole lot whenever the discussion of very overlooked players for the HOF are talked about.

Whitaker, Simmons, Lofton, Ventura, and Brown would be a pretty good inaugural Hall of Very Good class wouldn't it?
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Re: Around Baseball
« Reply #5384 on: January 09, 2013, 02:17:28 pm »
Morris is at best borderlne.
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