Bleacher Bums Forum

1) If I'm really confident that framing is worth what people are saying and the numbers where significantly in favor of Molina then yes.  I am I personally there, right now, no.
2.) Only the steroid era and that is more of a maybe.
3.) No.  The Cubs just need lefties so if I was on the fence it would matter.
4.) I'm serious about the body type.  Big guys cover more of the plate with their mass, so less movement is needed to catch the ball.

It was an internal Yankee study quoted in a Grantland article, so nobody has it.  From the data the public ha,s it is at best a wash if you assume Pujols was producing around 60 runs above average on offense.  Peak Pujols produced more and peak framing Molina couldn't catch him.

Okay, thanks. 

My own view is that I have no idea what value to place on framing (other than confident it has a value of some kind). 

But, can't a case be made that Pujols in his prime was the best hitter in baseball and that, roughly during that period, Jose Molina was among the worst hitters in baseball? Think that the Molina vs. Pujols/Posada study argument is the kind of thing that somebody would fabricate if they were trying to undermine the framing argument, like an agent provocateur or the like. Let's make the case that the the worst hitter is more valuable than the best hitter because of framing--and see if  folks buy it?

So, the notion that one component of catcher defense outweighs the offensive disparity (and maybe all other catching components) is amazing to me.  If that is true the, as Robb notes in his post, MLB must immediately go to an automated strike zone to get a more fair and accurate ball/strike system.

Also interesting that seems like no insiders within the game believe the value is anything close to the Molina vs. Pujols/Posada study.  The Yankees, who actually did the study, completely ignored the study results by letting Molina walk away for $800,000 to the Jays.  Don't think they do that if they remotely believe the study. 

Also haven't seen much discussion of this in baseball media, other than sabermetric circles.  Back in the 1980s, sabermetric stuff was widely ignored too but folks are a lot more sophisticated today.  Don't think a good study would be ignored.  Yes, Cubs to some extent are taking framing into account in roster construction but it is one thing to prefer Ross over Castillo overall and another to prefer Jose Molina over Albert Pujols in his prime/Posada.  And, yes, framing is referenced in general baseball media but rarely with any specifics regarding specific value.

In any event, all pretty interesting stuff. 

 

....If he is very poor at framing, hypothetically, the studies would say why bother, right?  Just put him in LF, even if he's decent at all other aspects of catching. Very poor Schwarber framing and we're back in the Jose Molina study.  Guessing that Cubs are not looking at it quite that way.

Agree. 

Automating the strike zone should lead to shorter game times, too.

I have no doubt that framing causes some pitches off the plate to be called strikes.

My distrust is in the conversion from increased strikes to decreased runs scored.  The logic that I have seen in quantifying the conversion has not been very convincing to me.

If Ross were the best "framer" in baseball, I would still rather have Castillo, let alone Pujols/Posada, at catcher.

Let's assume that framing is hugely significant, more significant than the offensive differential between Posada and Molina.

Let's assume pigs can fly....

Your math is probably a little high there, if for no other reason than of the 120 pitches that are thrown, the catcher probably only catches about half of them, since many are hit before they reach the catcher's glove.  In addition, a fair proportion are obvious strikes or obvious balls regardless of who is the catcher.

Are there any studies which quantify how many balls a good catcher can turn into strikes in a typical game?

Give me Schwarber swinging a hypothetical 120-ish OPS+ left-handed bat and I'll live with his warts defensively.